Pretty much pointless, in my experience

Submitted by celebriticat on
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In a way, I wish I'd never learned of Karezza. It's basically made it so that I'm not interested in a partnership unless it includes this kind of connection. That's not a bad thing. It's just that it renders the information useless to me, unless you consider that it's kept me from the heartbreak of another failed relationship.

I hoped to at least be able to raise awareness of the practice to enhance the partnerships of others, but no one wants to hear about it, in my experience.

May the rest of you have better luck.

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You're in Texas for chrissakes!

try some West Coast boys!

"Website
http://ahealinghug.com
Location
Splendora (about 40 miles north or Houston"

Pardon, my prejudice is showing....started with the W and has been reinforced with Ricky P. But I gotta say in some sort of defense, I am soooo liberal that I like cowboy boots, Lyle Lovett, and the Boot Scoot Boogie...Electric Glide is fun too

Your web link is broke

May you find peace in your loving heart

Believe it or not

I have some very enlightened friends right here in Texas! But even the women I've talked to about it (trying to spread the word), think sex without orgasm sounds bland.

We are SO programmed!

I understand your discouragement

Since I first started working on my book, some 25 years ago, the relationship/sexual situation of the world has deteriorated rapidly. But, as the ancient Chinese used to say, "When a situation becomes too yang it can flip quite suddenly to the opposite extreme (yin)." And now that porn is causing rampant sexual dysfunctions in men, we may be inching toward that time. Soon people may realize they've been absorbing some very harmful messages from sexologists for decades - and be ready for another approach. This seems to be the way we humans learn most everything. Mosking

In any case, keep the faith.

What frustrates me...

...is not the lack of sex. I've left the raging hormones behind.

It's my deep conviction that couples communing in this fashion could generate peace on earth, not just between the sheets.

best not to pressure anyone

i know this is difficult, but it's a romantic fantasy that people are going to "get" this up front.

However, once you practice this sex with them, even if they are not, the magic happens. This is my preferred recommendation these days. Open mindedness happens when you are the example. Expecting to find someone already into this is like impossible. But someone receptive...well that's different.

I was watching a show from the UK called Fleabag, episode 2, and it actually addresses Karezza and lovemaking versus "fucking"...first time I've seen someone in a show get this right and address the issue. 

Point is, though, that you first meet someone, then you have sex, and you don't orgasm, and they get intrigued, and things evolve. That's how I see it. Anything else is doomed.

I gotta watch that!

Thanks, too, for the good tip. I'm sure you're right. It must be very hard for anyone today to entertain the possibility that a different approach to sex could yield better results - when they see the "proof" of the mainstream script in every fake moan and scream on porn vids. *sigh*

They pretty much have to hit a wall via porn overuse before they look around.

yeah they still have gratuitous sex

but the writer has an understanding of this dynamic, first time I've seen this EVER in a show...although not heavy handed...and it's very worth seeing, and a VERY entertaining show!

I won't give things away, but she is a porn watcher...

I'm now on the fourth episode and really enjoying it. 

 

Call Me a Caveman...

...but I would think that a guy, hearing this line from his new, steady girlfriend, would be mightily intrigued: "Let's try things this other way. With it, you will get to have sex with me everyday. With it, we can have sex for hours. With it, this (she lightly brushes junior) will work better than it has in years."

I know, I am projecting. But, let me tell you, I would be highly interested.

(Picks up club, turns around, and shuffles back into cave...)

yes, but the phrase you used...

is "from his new steady girlfriend"

That's the key right there...FIRST...

To be shopping for a dating and mating experience with that front and center, before getting involved with someone, is going to limit the playing field so much that it's going to be IMHO hopeless.

But once a guy and a girl connect, well then that's different..

I don't want to become

I don't want to become emotionally involved with someone only to be disappointed that they aren't willing to trade excitement for bliss.

And if one partner is doing friction, the other partner may not be able to choose no orgasm. I don't see how this could work if it's not mutually chosen. One person's choice would preempt the other's.

The sad fact is that people actually believe they are being loving when they use each other's bodies to get off, as long as the other gets off, too. I used to buy into that, myself. But it's really just mutual exploitation. Nope. Not interested. Not even a little bit.

agree mostly about no pressure

but don't keep your preference for not having orgasms a secret when you have sex for the first time! Otherwise, the guy could exhaust himself trying to give you an orgasm, and feel disappointed or feel like he "failed" if he doesn't give you one. Tell him clearly that you enjoy sex, but you definitely do not want an orgasm, and tell him your reasons. He should be willing to slow down or stop moving if you ask him to.

As for asking him to not orgasm... I think there are several concerns he might have that you might have to address in order to avoid scaring a guy off before the relationship has a chance to get started:

1. Does no orgasm mean no fun, no enjoyment? Of course those of us who practice karezza will say, no, of course not. But new guys will just have to try it and see for themselves.
2. Will he never be allowed to have an orgasm with you, if he wants one or feels he needs one (to cure blueballs, get to sleep, etc.)? I think you need to negotiate and be willing to compromise about that. Something for you to consider and keep in mind: if he is confident that you will let him have sex again and have an orgasm in the near future (such as next morning or next evening), he may more willing to forgo an orgasm now.
3. Does your preference to avoid orgasms indicate a low sex drive? Would he feel like he wasn't getting enough sex with you? An honest discussion about desired sex frequency might be in order. I stress honest, because mismatched sex drives can lead to a lot of disappointment and bitterness.
4. It sounds like you have been promoting karezza to a number of people. Have you heard other objections or concerns?

I would recommend not jumping into sex right away, but perhaps invite the guy to sleep with you with the clear understanding that sex is not on the agenda for now. Say you want to see what it's like to be with him without the distraction of sex. Do you both enjoy spending time together? Say you want to know what it's like to be with him during the 18 hours a day when you're not having sex! (Joking.) I don't know about Texas guys, but I would certainly jump at such an opportunity. Sleeping with a nice woman, even without sex, is a lot better than sleeping alone!

And a weekend of sex, even mostly without orgasm, ought to be a lot better than no sex at all, from the perspective of a guy who hasn't tried karezza! When you decide to try sex, spend a weekend together. Ask him to try karezza for most of the weekend, then he can have an orgasm Sunday night or Monday morning if he likes. Just warn him that he may feel cranky or like he needs some time away from you in the next few days, due to orgasm hangover.

By the way, morning is a good time for a guy to try karezza. There is no worry about not being able to get to sleep. And if he had an orgasm the previous night, he may be less likely to have another orgasm so soon after.

Wishing you good luck in your quest to find a guy interested in a karezza-based relationship!

Sex drive has never been a

Sex drive has never been a problem for me, although I'm not "hungry" the way I used to be when I was younger.

It's just that with what I know now, and what I have observed in my own experience and the way I feel about it all, I would not be okay with someone basically using my body as a masturbatory device.This is the way we are programmed to "do" sex, both by our limbic brains and media.

Besides that, if a partner is doing friction sex with me, I'm not going to be able to practice karezza. It's always been easy for me to orgasm.

Dick Lizard

Springing no orgasm, frictionless sex on an unsuspecting male steeped in the old tradition of 'the lizard awakens' or the newer one of 'she comes first' is likely to confuse him no end!

It was a long, hard road for me to find sex without orgasm a choice worth making, even though I was the instigator of it in our marriage, against my wife's preference for something more traditional. We both love it to bits now. In fact, we relish it to an extent that seems almost surreal to me, given we have been having sex together for more than forty years. Friction, though, is not something we have had any success avoiding. Whenever we stop moving for longer than a temporary lull, our lovemaking metamorphosises into a non sexual embrace - lovely and nourishing in its own right, but not particularly satisfying, on the visceral level, unless it comes at the end of a long period of activity. The less we move, the more our minds tend to wander, until eventually, we drift off to sleep.

Friction needn't mean vigorous movement. What I learned was to simply slow everything down (in the beginning, to snail pace), as I found it was usually rapidity of movement that brought on orgasm. Although it was hard to resist the attraction of speed, the bonus was the time spent making the effort, which became more and more pleasurable in its own right. To the extent that I 'led' our lovemaking, my wife accommodated herself to my tempo, whereas when she led, I tended to lag, until, eventually, we became in accord. The realisation that our enjoyment of the journey towards orgasm was preferable to the orgasm itself crept up on us slowly. At a certain point, we realised it had became no hardship at all to forgo climax, as that merely extended the length of time we spent ostensibly pursuing it.

I like to remind myself that the only reason I get an erection is because my body wants to ejaculate. Dick Lizard is still in charge, but now I have him on a firm leash. I've no desire to put him in an oubliette, though. I don't want to subdue him. He has such amazing energy and seems to thrive with all the extra attention he's been getting in recent years. He's probably disappointed not to have his way more often, but he remains an eternal optimist.

I just wanted to convey something of what it has been like for me, as a male, to make the transition from conventional sex to a perhaps less purist form of Karezza than you have in mind. Others may have had a more straightforward journey. Obviously you can't force someone else to act as you want but maybe if you meet the right person you can find a way of leading by example?

Raises questions for

Raises questions for celebriticat.

How do you know that you'll have a smooth transistion to karezza? Or that you wouldn't benefit from stops along the journey? Or that you wouldn't benefit from being teacher? Perhaps you've mentioned previous expereince with karezza elsewhere in older posts. 

This I know. William J Lloyd

This I know. William J Lloyd suggested there would come a generation of women who wouldn't accept less than communion. I am not willing to accept friction, when I know communion is possible.

I understand the hunger. I remember it well. And I don't have to choose that.

If, by some miracle, a man shows up in my experience who is willing to choose communion over copulation, and bliss over excitement, we will have something to talk about.

The trouble is, as has been mentioned here, leading with conversations about sex may not be the best way to get acquainted. Yet, not having that conversation (it's already on both people's minds, anyway) means potentially investing a lot of energy into getting to know someone and then both of you being let down when you do get to that conversation, and don't want the same things.

I have also tried the tact of developing friendship first, but I haven't yet found a man who is truly on board with that. They may give it lip service, but they tend to try to steer toward physical affection pretty quickly. Getting to know you better seems to be code for, "let me see if you turn me on".

I would so love it if there was a dating site, as has been mentioned on here before, geared to people who are already interested in karezza. I've found that even on Cuddle Comfort, there is a tendency for many to try to use cuddling as an inroad to copulation.

I don't want much, just a bunch of us loving in ways that light up the world, rather than creating a bunch of little explosions that lead to separation.

I think there will come a day

when there will be enough karezzanauts to populate a dating site. But unfortunately, right now, at this moment human history, we aren't there yet. So you might find yourself alone for a really long time. Maybe you're ok with that, but there are other options to consider that don't exactly amount to compromise.

Let me back up a bit. I see a relationship between high-speed internet porn (HSIP) and awareness of karezza. That's because use of (and addiction to) HSIP is on the rise; its affects are reaching epidemic proportions. Men of all ages, even young men are complaining of sexual dysfunction in such large numbers that this sudden increase in ED can only be explained by HSIP, a form of sexual stimulation so concentrated, it's never been seen before and our caveman brains weren't designed to handle it.

Ironically, this epidemic of porn-induced ED (PIED) is your ray of hope because karezza is a solution to one of the most asked questions by men in recovery from PIED: "my dick is broken, how can I fix it without giving up sex"? It's that last part that's important because, although they start with selfish motivations, these men are seeking karezza, they just don't know it yet. Karezza is a solution to this problem. I know this because I am one of those men.

So, unfortunately, it may be too soon for you to expect a ready-made karezza man, I think the number of those available is so small at this point that the odds of you randomly encountering one are between slim and none. So that leaves four options:

    1 compromise, which you don't want to do (I wouldn't either),
    2 be alone, which I'm guessing you don't want to do (I wouldn't either),
    3 wait until the aforementioned global transformation has taken place (which I believe might be equivalent to 2)
    4 date until you find a man you really like and hope after the initial "honeymoon sex" part of the relationship, that he is willing to consider experimenting with new ways of lovemaking

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to hear that some users of this site (I'm one of them) practice karezza very differently from how Diane Richardson teaches it. My wife and I have what I consider to be really hot sex, just slower and without the orgasm. We do everything we used to do (including all the foreplay stuff), but just skip the "O". There is plenty of friction, but also connection, awareness, eye contact, gentle touching, kissing and all of the relationship benefits like less conflict (almost none really), better more stable moods, more happiness, etc. We reach the most amazing, blissful states we never knew existed. My wife LOVES what we do, and before karezza, she didn't...at all. I share this because, although it took us a looooong time to do the experiments enough times and to practice enough times to settle into our current lovemaking style, we eventually got to a place that doesn't differ from conventional sex that much in terms of what we actually do; but because of how we do it, it makes all the difference. I don't think that's something that a person, or couple, can simply "just get" immediately. I believe it's a process of mutual experimentation and exploration.

That is my long-winded way of saying that perhaps you can find relief by not viewing the situation as totally black or white; that the important thing is to find someone you really like and just develop the relationship. Over time, you can lead the lovemaking into karezza-land and hopefully your man will follow you there. I really don't think it's that controversial for a woman to expect her man to be a sensitive, gentle lover. It's not so strange for a woman to express out loud, even during the first lovemaking session with a man that she prefers gentle, conscious, connected lovemaking to being fucked. If you leave out the jargon, you're probably not that far off; then it's just the transition to skipping the "O". Granted, that's a really big transition, but all it really takes is willingness to do a few experiments (lasting a few weeks each). That doesn't sound so daunting, does it?!?

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Isn't there a difference

Isn't there a difference between accepting and precluding that in many cases there are stepping stones? The reality seems to me that even if miracle guy is entirely on board with karezza from the get go, things may not go as smoothly as you imagine.

And I'm not sure that we can realistically conclude that karezza=bliss=relationship harmony. Perhaps it's worth pondering what are you avoiding? At some level, friction and copulation. But what else? What is it about these non-miracle guys that doesn't work for you? What is it in the non-karezza relationship that you dislike? Then can you find most of what you want with the understanding that you'll probably have to work on karezza together and it can be a lifetime of work. 

Interest in karezza doesn't preclude interest in other forms of sex. It's not that black and white for many. 

Helpful Commentary, sood!

Thanks for teaching me a new word, 'oubliette.'

I understand this, I think: "...To the extent that I 'led' our lovemaking, my wife accommodated herself to my tempo..."

Could you explain this, please: "...whereas when she led, I tended to lag..."

Thanks for your insights and help!

Logical Commentary, sender

Thanks for sharing how you and your wife do things. It is very much how my wife and I do things. I do have to tone things down, though, as I still have 'spills' every 10-14 days.

Funny, but not surprising, that as I get better and better control at preventing inadvertent ejaculation that I push things a bit further. Simple cavemen like me always want more, more, more when it comes to bliss.

Lagging

I just checked the definition of 'lag', which is failure 'to keep up with another or others in movement'.

Over the years we had been together we had got used to moving together at a certain speed during lovemaking. We would instantly accommodate to each other as we changed tempo while advancing from initiation to orgasm. This generally meant we got progressively faster, in unison.

When I got interested in Karezza and started resisting my own impulsive desire to speed up, my wife automatically did the same. It would have jarred for her not to. However, although she initially accommodated herself to my speed, because she was so used to going faster, she would try to get us back on track. It was when she did this that I deliberately 'lagged'. By failing to accommodate to her tempo, I more or less dragged her back to the slower speed I was seeking.

This was quite awkward for a while but now we're as in harmony on the speed front as we were when pursuing orgasm.

What I wanted to convey in my post was how the process of adaptation from regular lovemaking to Karezza lovemaking wasn't just a matter of deciding to do it. It took a lot of time and effort (pleasurable effort, of course!) to override past conditioning and still remain in sync. Part of this was because my wife had no particular desire to follow me down this path, so she didn't attach the same importance to going slowly as I did.

Follow my leader

I was definitely in charge during the learning process but now if there is a captain's hat we seem to be taking turns wearing it. We often pass the hat to and fro as we go along. I have wondered about this. On the dance floor, it is difficult to have two people leading; but it seems to be working for us, sexually. This may be just a phase, though.

Thanks for the Explanation, sood!

I understand, now, your use of 'lag.'

How long have you (and then your wife) been going down the Karezza path?

Right now, during Karezza, I am the sole one who moves; my wife remains still. Early on, when my wife moved, I often ejaculated. Such was probably because I was 'edging.' So, no doubt, my ejaculation was my fault for having taken myself too close and being triggered by a reasonable movement, typically my wife just moving a leg or her hip to get more comfortable. From those early inadvertent ejaculations, we both decided that I moved and she remained still.

Maybe we learned the wrong lesson.

Neat, that your wife moves with you. That sounds wonderful. I would like to ask my wife to try that.

I would appreciate any and all practical tips -- e.g., position(s) you use, whether you change of positions during a session, pace of movement, 'rest periods,' placement or use of hands, time of day and frequency for Karezza, extent of eye contact, use or not of verbal exchanges, etc. -- sood, that you care to pass on! Or, if you have detailed all of this elsewhere here already, just say so and I can search for such.

Thanks for your help, Co-Captain! Heck, maybe you and your wife should be promoted to Co-Admirals/Co-Admirables!

Every other day

I see I've been a member here for 9 years 6 month and first posted 9 years 3 months ago, which is scary!

It took me a long time to get to grips with Karezza, a process I documented at length, more or less as it happened. I've posted less often recently, as things have settled down into something that has become almost routine without being remotely humdrum.. We went through lots pf phases, including one of finding Karezza pretty boring, but happily we've emerged into a place that seems generally sunlit, even in midwinter.

I attribute this to three things. One was me learning to go slowly enough for long enough to stop the impulse for orgasm breaking through. This took years, but once I had gained the necessary control I found I could move faster again, more or less at will. Two was establishing a workable schedule that enabled us to escape from the awkwardness of not knowing each others minds when it came to when we would next make love. Having a clear understanding that we will both endeavour to get together every other day has been colossally important. It often isn't 'every other day' at all, because circumstances intervene, but for both of us, knowing the intention is there, no matter what, makes all the difference. Again, this took years to arrive at - though it could hardly be simpler. Three was abandoning all discussions of sex, in any shape or form. I've no idea why, but despite our best intentions, these tete a tetes never helped..

I can't really say much about the details of our lovemaking other than that we use only a few positions, go fairly slowly, don't 'rest' much, use our hands and mouths quite a lot, look at each other frequently, murmur and moan but hardly ever speak - and we only ever make love mid morning or mid afternoon, preferably when the sun is beaming through a convenient window. At night we're too sleepy and in the morning too sluggish.

Far from being Admirals I'd rather think of us as co-rowers in a small dingy on a calm sea.

What?!

This sort of blew my mind: "Three was abandoning all discussions of sex, in any shape or form. I've no idea why, but despite our best intentions, these tete a tetes never helped."

How did you establish a schedule and so on without having a discussion about it? Perhaps you are defining "discussion" as more than a sentence or two? And maybe a sentence or two was enough to establish agreement?

I find I have to communicate a lot more, in quantity and assertiveness, than I do normally, in order to bring about desired changes.

One, two, three

I see your point!

The three things I mention did happen in order, though, over a long period of time.

We had lots of discussions, wrangling ones mostly, about the nuts and bolts of what we were doing, and, insofar as they led us to where we are, they helped and might have been indispensable; but matters have only got better since we stopped having them.

I honestly think if I knew when I started what I know now we could have managed everything much more subtlety by (me, mostly, but also my wife) changing behavioural cues and recognising the responses we got rather than talking about what we wanted or didn't want. Our discussions were always so clunky and left us feeling flayed.

Could we have set up a schedule without mentioning it? Probably, yes. We've had unspoken schedules before. When kids filled the house and there was barely any time to call our own, somehow we knew instinctively when we would get together. Maybe I'm blessed with a responsive wife but part of our recent problem was me failing to recognise her preferred time and place had changed over time. Once we established that it was plain sailing.

Thanks Much!

Thanks for the summary of your journey, sood! I appreciate it!

At the very least, you two are expert paddlers in the rough whitewater of this life and world!

our experience was different

very little talking...at any point. Which I think is better.

we DID agree to a schedule pretty early on. It took 6 months for things to settle down into a good easy pattern.

My wife isn't into sex the way I am. She still isn't although she is in her way very quietly enthusiastic about sex. i have learned to trust her. She will initiate if it's one of our "sex days". She likes the closeness but doesn't feel much, even still.

We have only a few positions and I favor slow but deep penetration. We have a lot of eye contact during sex. Kisses and moans on my part mainly.

I just feel so much although each time is different. I feel 100 times more than I ever used to. It's quite extraordinary.

I have lately avoided coming. It is just SO much better not coming. For me anyway. I mean, sincd starting Karezza, I always did avoid it, but got onto a pattern of once every 2 or 3 weeks, which thankfully seems to be past. I always have the thought during sex, "it would be great to just let go" and now I expect the thought, and it NEVER is very good, not at all, so I think, "oh there is the thought, just as I expected" and I don't just let go...and it's way better.

She occasionally orgasms from PIV sex.

Sometimes I give her oral sex which causes her to orgasm, and I feel remotely affected by her orgasm, but she doesn't seem to be much affected. 

We have sex almost always in the morning, 4 times a week, occasionally in the afternoon, usually once a day and very occasionally twice a day.

After maybe  or 6 months, my wife indicated she resented my "changing" things, and after 7 months, I came (for the first time in 7 months) and she said, she liked it better the new way.

I frequently stop, and make sure I don't get too hot. I think I tend to get kind of hot, because my feelings for my wife tend to reach a fever pitch, then drop down a bit, then back up...even though I don't come. I think it's kind of a form of edging. I feel extremely satiated after sex, although not tired or sleepy...I think there is a hormone discharge to a small degree like a standard orgasm, sometimes, based upon these up and down hormonal feelings.

I love going close and playing near the waterfall though. I do a practice where I feel my penis energy flowing into her, and focus down there and with some of my attention on her breasts and the energy flowing from them into me, and that creates a kind of whole body orgasmic feeling that I sustain the entire time.

It's really quite amazing. I am sorry she misses out on this, but still hope she can rewire her brain to really feel it.

i want to clarify

my feelings for my wife between Karezza sessions vary a lot and I think it's because of the heat of our sex...for me anyway...during a session I suppose it varies too, but I was speaking about days between. 

I wonder if you experience the same thing when you look at your partner, even though you haven't come.