how to date a woman with issues

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Ok. so as you who have been following me know, I was dating this girl who had issues and was always pushing me away. I really love her and tried very hard but we ended up breaking up.

The problem was, I couldn't stay away... I have never felt about anyone like this in my life, multiply the closest one to at least 5. We had a profound connection and met on a friday night and somehow ended up spending the weekend together just talking with some cuddling. And I just absolutely enjoyed being around her and adored her in a way I can't even describe. And she has said she felt that way too. Every time we split up, she would eventually call me up, insist on seeing me, and tell me how much she missed me and wanted to be with me, sometimes crying and talking about how the other guys she met just sucked. And there were times I felt I was finally done with her, but after a week or two apart, I just felt so awful. I missed her soooo much. At the time I met her, I was finally to a point in my life where I was happy with who I was, and thinking I could share this with someone else. I had also been sending this thought into the universe that I wanted to meet someone who was highly compatible, complementary to me, possibly a soul mate. Then, out of the blue, she came along.

So, I kept doing research. I have dated a woman or two with BPD(Borderline Personality Disorder) before and dumped them with no problem when things went bad, but I couldn't with this one. So I have done a lot of thinking, research, soul searching. First of all, why would the gods or great spirits (yes thats how I view my higher power) send me another person like this? And in my searching I came across a site that was partially forum and partially selling a product. The product was this ebook and cd about how to have a successful relationship with a person with BPD. I think the money was well spent and included a free email consultation with the author(actually I ended up with 2).

But, basically, the book and cd talks about a lot of stuff I have been learning here. a BPD is just an extreme version of a normal woman(This also means that their good side is REALLY good). So, somewhere here on reuniting, I read that it is the proper place for the female to be dynamic and moving and for the male to be like a rock and well grounded. No ego, no taking mentality. And basically the book says that women say illogical and irrational things they don't mean all the time and when they are saying things about how they don't like you, cant stand you, don't know where this is going, you must have the mentality that its part of her illness and ignore it. Also like a normal woman they will test you, but x20, x50 what a normal woman will and you must not be affected by it. They will see other people and you must have the mentality it doesn't bother you to get it to stop(mine insists she never saw anyone else while we were "together"). Also, that they do all these things bc of a faulty upbringing that made them think everyone will eventually abandon them, but that sometimes the only way to get through to them is to send a message by leaving. This sounds cruel, but I thought about it and the alternative is that you eventually get fed up and DO leave them for good, whereas you can teach them that the short term consequence for their behavior is you leaving. Also, when you start changing, she will test you even harder. And don't make it easy for her to win you back.

Basically you have to drop your ego, and also realize this won't be a relationship like everyone else has unless she admits her problem and goes to counseling(which she has been talking about doing lately)

From the beginning, there was a recurring theme where she would say she wanted to be friends and I would be like "ok" and when she was convinced that I simply liked being around her w out sex, she would want it again, so this is a clue, too.

I have been doing all this, but it's hard(actually sometimes its easy, too), and lately I have heard things about us being friends period, that she was never attracted to me(even tho she started texting every day again), and just the other night, I was doing great and wasn't bothered by anything and had that mentality that its ok to be friends until she figures it out, but its on my terms, but then she told me to sleep on the floor(citing a recent bad experience that had nothing to do with me) and eventually told me while I was on the floor that she hated men(heard it b4), and had never wanted to sleep next to me and that she had always just felt obligated to(yeah, thats why weve been doing it for like 7 months). Anyway, I took the bait. This upset me and I told her that she needed to get over her bad experiences and that we need space from each other and to call me when she does and that I was leaving(This was the right thing to do) But, she flipped out, and starting saying things and I gave in to her guilting (wrong thing to do) and stayed but then she decided to drive me home(she had drove me there) and on the way she cried and said why couldn't I just be her rock and shes going through some stuff(Why do I need to be her rock if we're "friends"...?). And she left me with "I'm just going through some shit. Don't take it personally, I need a few days." Another thing that really bothers me sometimes is when she tells me about her experiences with not meeting good men around here and I'm sitting here thinking, "Hellloooo! what about me?". One of the problems is that her as well as other BPDs are very good at sizing up how you are feeling instantly and it's hard to keep that unshakeable mask but you have to.

I really want to see this through now and find out if it can be done, but sometimes nothing bothers me and then there are moments where I am really discouraged and just want to quit and never talk to her again. And Im thinking that maybe if i just stop talking to her she will change after a few months like my other BPD exes who called me up later on begging me back and they had actually grown some(but I didn't want them anymore). And I do realize that this stuff makes her sound horrible, but remember her good side is REALLY good and that she doesn't do these things out of malicious intent like normal people, it's part of her disorder. And if I can't figure out how to do this, she won't be any happier with whoever she ends up with(in fact, probably less happy)

Any guys out there have experiences dating women with issues and having to be extra strong for them? A friend who I asked a question said the same thing, that with a woman like this I have to show love in a strong way, not a weak way. And is there anything anyone can tell me to encourage me? Actually I already feel a bit better, I haven't written a blog entry in a while... I guess I'm looking for a more existential/tao/spiritual, reuniting.info-ish take on the idea of being the strong man for a broken woman...

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I could try suggesting to her

I could try suggesting to her at the right time. She has to be in the right mental state to listen, though. 

In the beginning she was keen on the slow sex stuff and even tried not going for orgasms during sex a few times. Interestingly these were the times she talks about sometimes when she thought we had good sex.

verbalize your thoughts more

"Another thing that really bothers me sometimes is when she tells me about her experiences with not meeting good men around here and I'm sitting here thinking, "Hellloooo! what about me?". One of the problems is that her as well as other BPDs are very good at sizing up how you are feeling instantly and it's hard to keep that unshakeable mask but you have to."

At times like that you probably _should_ say "Hellloooo! What about me?" What is there to lose, in that situation?

I know it's not always easy to say what's on your mind. I tend to keep my thoughts to myself, too.

I did say something like that

I did say something like that, "You know, I know this guy who does really like you and want to be with you" and thats when she gave me the but I'm not attracted to you.

A few weeks back, we just wanted to get out of town and drove for an hour and stayed in a hotel and she had hit me with "I really want us to just be friends. I mean that from the bottom of my heart" "Im not attracted to you" "You suck in bed" and others  I kept my unshakeable mask, stayed grounded and didn't let these bothered me with an outer attitude like "Do whatever makes you happy" and a few hours later, I heard, "You know I really, literally don't think I could live my life without you, so I guess that means I love you" and other good stuff and even said we would try sex again soon( we haven't really tried since my performance anxiety as BPDs find what are simple problems to normal people to be a really big unsolveable thing)

But, then she went to visit her sister for a few days and her sister and sisters husband told her stuff about "how relationships are supposed to work". She ate it up and regurgitated on me when she got back and since she keeps saying she wants friends only, could take me or leave me right now if I can't really truly be friends with her, but doesn't really act like it.  She also said that relationships where people are as passionate about each other as we are never work, that she wants time to work on herself, and a few other things, but she ended up cuddling me halfway through that night she got back and started texting me almost every day again and after a week and a half apart "I tried calling you, Do you hate me now" and we ended up going to dinner and a movie and she kissed me a few times.

Also, during that conversation when she got back she was saying she didn't think she could be truly monagamous indefinitely and I said the right person should be enough and she hit me with the im not attracted to you, but as the man who wrote the book says don't pay attention to what they say and read between the lines, try to figure out why they say it rather than be bothered by it. If you read between the lines, its interesting that she said something about me right after I said something about "the right person". Also she says from time to time that she doesn't want to have sex with me, so she must be thinking about it. I realize she tells herself this stuff to avoid the shame and guilt of her mistaken decision to break up with me.

Anyway I emailed the man about all this new stuff and he said its just another f**ked up test

It's all confusing and hard, but I have some hope now that I learned this stuff.

warning: straight talk

[quote]she doesn't do these things out of malicious intent like normal people, it's part of her disorder.[/quote]

She does deserve huge amounts of compassion and empathy, especially in the moments where she is being honest with herself about her issues and the changes she needs to make. But are you aware of what you're saying here? By sticking this BPD label on her, in a way you're saying she'll never be able to make her life happier and healthier by making better choices. Think about it. She's making poor choices. Does it really help her to have you validating and reflecting back to her that it's not her fault, it's just "part of her disorder"?

[quote]And if I can't figure out how to do this, she won't be any happier with whoever she ends up with(in fact, probably less happy)[/quote]

This sounds sort of like you're saying you're the best damn enabler she'll ever find. But is that what you want for her? If it is "love," you'd want to see her with someone who will challenge her and compel her to be better than her best. Someone who won't put up with the BS that you have been putting up with. Someone who won't take less than authenticity, kindness, courage, magnanimity.

Just as a reference point, as my friend went through AA and got herself together, she ended up splitting with her husband. There were a number of reasons, but the deal breaker is that he enabled her drinking. He preferred it when she drank, because then she was at home wallowing in their shared misery. When she was sober, she was out pursuing life, learning, laughing; being alive. Enabling sometimes feels like an amazing, selfless way to show love. But it's not. Enabling is a way of holding someone back, keeping their wings clipped so they stay close to you. I say this just to ask you to consider the vested interest you may have in believing that she has a disorder, because that would mean she's damaged goods, and then she would need you and lean on you.

Don't put up with bad behavior. If she wants to be "friends," (which is a code word meaning that she wants you nearby to pick up the pieces while she goes on a biologically driven quest for fertilization sex with high ranking alpha males), make sure she treats you with the respect and consideration you would expect from a male friend.

undying wrote:

[quote=undying][quote]And if I can't figure out how to do this, she won't be any happier with whoever she ends up with(in fact, probably less happy)[/quote] This sounds sort of like you're saying you're the best damn enabler she'll ever find. But is that what you want for her? If it is "love," you'd want to see her with someone who will challenge her and compel her to be better than her best. Someone who won't put up with the BS that you have been putting up with. Someone who won't take less than authenticity, kindness, courage, magnanimity. [/quote]

My meaning is that, in other relationships, she will keep doing the same things and be unhappy. Right now I've a better chance of being the above for her than anyone else.

These individuals meet a normal person with any level of assertiveness, that person will dump their "crazy" ass pretty soon.  Mostly they end up with codependents like me who stick around, so the only real option is for a person like me to learn how to be less codependent and better ways of coping with the behavior.

It's easy to become addicted

It's easy to become addicted to abuse.
As a female once addicted to a male borderline.

Being a source of love and security does not mean that you are supposed to be abused. Ask yourself what kind of intimacy you're avoiding by insisting on being a caretaker rather than an equal partner.

This is actually exactly what

This is actually exactly what I have been taught. Although they have these issues and we want to "help" them, we must remember they are still attracted to us for the same reasons as normal women. Rescuing, Putting up with bad behavior, etc, all no-nos. And knowing you can't  change them.

If you read my post up top, you would know that right now we aren't talking bc I set a boundary by telling her to get over her hatred of men.

I'm learning how not to put up with it; it's hard. A while back we had a great night together and when she got mad and gave me a little shove, I told her I would leave if she didn't stop it, and she immediately calmed down, and then we hung out, the night went well.

As of right now, I don't know if we will ever be on good terms again. We're not really talking, and the night I talk abouit in my post above happened after a couple of good weeks that happened bc I set boundaries. But, I sorta slipped and didn't leave right away.

And, I don't go telling her she has BPD. When we talk about it, I remove the labels and talk aboutl her issues and fear of abandonment, and also worth as a person. I will tell her to try to think of herself as a person and not bad or good, as these labels lead to their opposites if heard too much.

The root of these problems is that she had a faulty upbringing and will never believe someone can really love her. Fear of abandonment.

It never hurts

to learn more about how to cope with difficult people, and I'm sure you'll use those insights. We just don't want to watch you martyr yourself for someone who isn't (yet) making an effort to clean up her act.

Ok.. so it is time for my two

Ok.. so it is time for my two cents.

I have been married to a woman for 12 years with close to the identical characteristics you are describing.

We are currently separated but making much progress to being together again.

She cannot be labled as some sort of disease or crazy. Her soul and brain are a certain way because of both environment and biology. Everyone is challenged in different ways. All people work on their challenges in different ways. That is why we are all here.

I don't know why I love her so. Is it the amazing sweetness that the universe has decided to contrast with extreme pain?

People can and do tell me to run.. not walk away and find a "normal" love. But what is a normal love?

It may sound like codependence but it is not. Nor am I addicted to abuse or trying to fix her. I have had enough individual counseling to know this.

I have concluded she does not need fixing. She is searching like all of us. Most sheeople think they are searching for someone we think will make us whole .. complete us .. which is what I used to think ..

Now I am convinced we are really misguided .. our partners are meant to be only shepards helping us realize how to make ouselves whole from within ourselves... well .. I speak for myself here. I guess amazing bonding does make us feel very whole. But bottom line.. we always die alone.

My wife and I are support for each other in our quest. One of the plethora of my complex insecurities is.. I have a sex addiction .. which conquering or managing is part of what I am doing to make me whole.. my life and conflict with this woman has allowed me to face this head on and do well. It isn't easy.. but what worthwhile thing is?

Do I need a "yes girl" to make me feel better and then move to another when I tire of her.. well.. no. I mean maybe I wouldn't tire of a more "normal woman" and live happily ever after.. really? .. honestly does a normal person exist out there? I hope not... how are they to grow? What would be the purpose?

"What we find in a soulmate is not something wild to tame but something wild to run with".
Robert Brault

So my encouragement to you is to say you know what you want.

You cannot and will not be able to control her or anyone else.

If all the shit is too intense then walk away and find the ideal mate.. you know the one that is fifty times less volitle and testing than this one. However I am not sure if she or he is easily found. She is in your path for a reason.

Be a rock if you want to.. as much as you want to because it makes you stronger. Don't deny your feelings of being hurt a lot. Feel your feelings and let them pass. You know the hurt she feels inside she is just bouncing off of you or passing through you so she can learn to hurt less and be accepted.

Let it bounce. Let it pass. Don't enable or be a victim.. you have a voice obviously. Yes we are not ego free .. we have feelings .. and words can hurt. But you know where they are coming from. A dark place of pain.

This may not work but it is not futile. Acceptance and not following her down her rabbit holes is key. Just be there.. you are her friend. That is an ultimate compliment for a challenged soul to give. Much more than a transitory lover who she will hate and despise because she see's herself in him. This is her lesson to learn. Patience.

When test after test is not reacted to and trust is finally realized .. things could get better. but don't expect it.

I see life as a learning experience. I am not choosing the easy path by loving her. I choose this path partly because the universe chose to put her square in my way.. partly because I cannot deny my deep love for her.. and partly because I am not looking for a "Leave it to Beaver" life. How fucking boring would that be?

How can I grow if I don't follow this path that still feels right. I love her with all my heart and soul and she has been the ultimate catalyst for my spiritual growth. I look at life and pleasure and pretty much everything differently and healthier because of my relationship with her.

I will leave the "normal" women to "weaker" men who need more ego validation and are trying desperately to make life as easy as possible so they can skate through it and retire.. and die.

Me.. I am enjoying this crazy life for what it is. Constant upheaval and change. I can't control the waves on the ocean either.

She and I are surfing the waves together still. and I am happy.

Cheer up.. buttercup :)

I think of the purpose

of relationship harmony as providing a stable base for service to others. Without harmony, I'm constantly flapping in the wind like a loose electrical wire hitting the ground and making sparks. That state chewed up a lot of time and energy.

I think of karezza-based union of male and female as a way to energize a sort of mini nuclear reactor. It creates a synergy that empowers both partners with potential that otherwise may remain hidden. We may die alone, but in the meantime some of us can get a lot more done by managing our sexual relationships better.

In other words, I think you've painted a picture that's a little too black and white: "Either you're on a wild ride or you're bored and in a namby-pamby relationship."

In my view you are not even asking the most important question: "What is the best use of my time while on the planet?" You just assume it doesn't matter if you choose a chaotic relationship for your own entertainment. Maybe that's right. Maybe it's a big loss to the world.

That said, the fact that you two have all those children suggests that your place may indeed be with your wife for now, lest you tally up some rotten karma.

Stay open. More insights could be on the way.

Yes.. for sure. My heart is

Yes.. for sure. My heart is wide open for new insights. I know they will come as sure as the buds on the trees are bulging from the spring showers. Vibrant insights will bloom just like the spring blossoms.

Visual metaphors aside I have such a black and white view because it is how I cope.

I know there are wonderful women out there who are very open and loving and would synergistically complete their partners life with much less struggle than I am going through.

I also realize there are as many variations in love and partnership dynamics as there are in the shapes of snowflakes.

What I cannot do is even for a moment allow myself to indulge my mind or heart in pipe dreams about how much greener the grass might be with a "less damaged" partner.

It is not just for my potential negative karma because "I got myself into this mess" . I have elected to stay this course neither for karma or entertainment.

I can only say I stay the course for love.

It is what I feel in my heart. I don't understand it.

I tell my ever evolving black and white stories to try to allow my mind to entertain other more logical avenues for the sacrifices of ego and self and needs that I have willingly and still willingly do.

I am seeking a logical answer that just isn't there. My illogical answer is love. It is why I take the lemons that I chose and patiently sweeten them and blend them and love them ... knowing I will make the best lemonade ever.. because I love and will not give up.

I did not wish to imply that "easy" beautiful loving amazing coupling is mamby pamby. I am just saying I have been presented with a more challenging scenario and I embrace it... frankly my heart feels like I don't want an easier path .. I see such beauty in the path I am on.

I am also fully convinced with the new tools I am developing I will be able to wait for my wife to open to me.

I was an immature asshole with a falsely elevated libido that made my lover feel obligated and guilty and angry. I am not that person anymore. Both of us arr evolving because we recognised the need and our unhappiness..

I never allowed her to open. I was always wanting more but never getting it because of this needy entitled nature .

As for my time on this planet.. I fully agree. I have precious human life.. and I have created a total of 5 precious human lives and have and continue to support and raise them as new and improved versions of us ..hopefully.

My occupation is such that I save as many lives as I am capable of. As is my newly blooming spiritual life.. compassion for all beings.

I am not saying all this to justify or convince myself or anyone of my worth. I know everyone's infinite worth.

I am saying it to let the world know even with a dysfunctional broken sex life .. quite a lot of good .. fulfilling accomplishments are possible.

I wish I would have had an amazing foundation.. but I guess I did.. just in her love without sexual happiness.

But just think what it will be like with this love foundation built upon with open understanding and intimate spiritual bonding.

This is my aspiration . A fresh lotus from the muddy bottom of a pond

You're already

a beautiful lotus. And honestly, I think karezza can really help stabilize mood swings in all sorts of women. So you may be pleasantly surprised...with time.

I'm on the same page,

I'm on the same page, Tortoise.

It's simply all about love and I can't explain it to anyone. It's irrational and illogical and I would have never thought to find myself here.

When we met, we looked up an astrological compatibility chart that said we would wonder how we ever lived without each other, that other people wouldn't really understand our love and that I would understand her in ways no one ever has and vice versa, among other things. Very high compatibility. At the time, it described exactly how we felt about each other and was very profound to both of us. I have never had a synchronicity moment like that.

But, right now, not so good. I have learned so much in the past few weeks. Relationships and all and I believe there are a few good reasons to be with people like this. They are awesomely fun to hang out with when they like you, they are attractive and good in bed, You will learn more about life from them more quickly than "normal" people, and they can be incredibly sweet and loving and giving at times. They have a bad side, but their good side is really good. I have learned mostly how to not be bothered by things

However I may be reaching the end of my ability to do this. When we have been in our off again phases, she more than once has gone on a few dates with someone, nothing serious or that amounts to much, and eventually figures out they aren't what she wants and comes back to me. She finally called me after 3 weeks the other day, we had fun and hung out, but she talked about this other guy she went on a few dates with, nothing serious, tells me she thinks she has a crush on and my attitude was like thats cute, glad you found someone. Again, we've done this dance before and it never amounted to anything. This may sound bad to you guys, but the fact is highly emotional people with abandonment issues are a lot more likely to cheat than everybody else, not that it excuses or makes it ok, just that I accepted this may happen as soon as I figured out she had issues that highly resemble BPD and so it's on me.

I don't get it though. At the time we met, she had this attitude that alpha males were no good,and that beta males were it. Actually she thought I was a good mix of the two. Now she's caught in this moth to the flame cycle and gets burned and coming back crying to me. I think Marnia is correct, unless she does something differently, learns to manage her sexual energy or something, I'm at a point where I think I actually literally need effort into this from her. I'm sitting on an email I may send telling her to call me when she can love herself enough to not need to put people down just to feel ok with herself or just call me when she gets over her cute little crush. Something she said in our last fight has been eating away at me, even though it was ridiculous, I just can't believe she said it, and although everything else I was able to ignore, this would be in the email, too, it is the main reason I am feeling this way.

However, there is a moral dilemma. As I have learned from one of these books I am reading, it is better to be effective than right in these cases and I may cause more damage than good, making her feel abandoned, rejected. But on the other side of things, these highly emotional people have a dichotomy where they are afraid of rejection and abandonment, but don't respect doormats.

Marnia wrote:

[quote=Marnia]

If you lead a horse to water and it won't drink then you're not responsible for its wellbeing.

[/quote]

Well, at this point, I have broken it off with her. One day we were hanging out (as "friends") and she said something about us never having been in a relationship, that we were just friends all along. This was kind of the last straw for me. But I had this feeling for a while, that this time when she insisted we were "just friends" it wasn't likely to change soon. Before when she said it, I knew she didn't mean it.

I tried to confront her about it in person, but she didn't want to talk at that time, so I sent her an email saying I am worth more than friendship and especially her denial.

We had a beautiful, magical connection in the beginning where we both felt like we were meeting someone we'd known forever.

But, the truth is, our first major fight happened after she showed me some porn site that a friend had shown her, and I could tell she was feeling a renewed interest in porn. Of course I wasn't really interested in that site, at this point in my life, porn is almost comical to me. But I don't think our first major fight at that time was a coincidence.

I'm pretty sure that's when things slowly went downhill. I became less and less attractive to her over time.

[quote=undying]Getting dumped by a "normal" person could be a transformative experience for her. Don't unfairly rob her of that.[/quote]

One day she will contact me again. The 2 other BPD women I dated did. But I didn't care anymore. I didn't really love them, though...

I wonder what I will feel when she does? But, then again, maybe she won't...

This is what addiction can destroy...

Yes I read "No More Mr. Nice

Yes I read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and it was very helpful.. although a bit painful for me.. hit home too much.. but this was good.

I am entering a new phase in my attitude in life. I am able to step out of the roles I used to put myself in... I mean she would put me in the role so to speak but then I would assume it to be true.. It is the hurt part of her that would lash out and then I would take it to heart that this comment is who I am. But it is not. I define who I am in my actions.

In my case I don't argue or get in conflict with anything she does or says when she is in a dark part of her healing. I simply don't get drawn into it. She has her own demons that she battles and I will not carry them for her. She has her own mistakes to make. I no longer take any verbal abuse.. it is not about me.. I smile and walk away.

This is not being a doormat.. it is just not taking the bait. Oddly enough a little time goes by and she realizes her disrespect.. and miraculously appologises. not always .. but often. the thing is I am not waiting for an appology or looking for one. I allow her to reach her own conclusions.

Since our separation of about two years we have both explored in our own ways. She and I are both commited to being as kind as we can be. And it is showing in both of us. I don't know if it is just time and maturity or seeing enough times the outcomes in our explorations or combined with the observations of the outcomes of others explorations.. but we are so much kinder to each other now.

I am not attached to anything anymore.. well mostly :) The thing I am least attached to is being "right". I know who I am .. I don't need to explain or defend that. I have no doubts on who I am and what I am about. I am about compassion for me and everyone. No .. I am not perfect.. but I am who I am and I am doing the best I can. I don't lie or cheat or steal or intentionally try to hurt.

One other thing I have let go of is huge. I no longer need her or anybody to complete me. I used to say this all day long but I finally believe it in my heart and act accordingly. Yes I love her and love being with her and love the challenges and sweetness. But I am fine alone. My happiness doesnt hinge on her seeing that I am this perfect person for her..

We both have made mistakes.. she realizes this. I realize this. We are both on a journey of exploration of who we are.. we realize this. We fall down and get up and when the dust settles we see who is there and how we are learning.

This is not an easy process though. Life truly is suffering and getting beat up a lot (metaphorically). The questions I ask myself are can I handle the challenge of being with this woman who I clearly love to my soul? Is it healthier for both of us to just move on? Is this a growth process or just a excercise in having the wisdom to know when to let go of attachment?

Well .. for me it evolved into letting go of attachment to my ego.. attachment to the story..attachment to anxiety. attachment to relieving sexual tension via orgasm.. attachment to my wonderful self through validation needing to use her body or emotional approval. Honestly the combination of her baggage and my baggage has been hell .. but it all has promoted me to let go of attachment to looking outside for a partner to palliate my insecure foundation as a man.

There would likely have been no way I would have explored the level,of self examination and spiritual work had I not fell in love with this woman with all her complexities and I feel honored that she is still exploring with me.

This is my story though. Not yours.. not at all. It is like I have said before. there are likely easier paths I could have taken.. could be taking.. but I elect not to. Not because I want to be a martyr.. but because I am in love and I feel her love has helped me grow as a human.

I really do believe a middle path is best for me. A hedonistic philosophy is subconsciously what my body and mind used to pursue .. it is what most people pursue. I don't intentionally want to be sad or hurt.. I just no longer have a goal or expectation of pleasure or comfort.. In fact I have no goal other than to show as much compassion for myself and everyone in their changes and to embrace the world as it is.. not some fantasy about how it should be.

..

I hope so. To be perfectly

I hope so. To be perfectly honest I am often quite afraid and lonely. I am happy . I know my life is good and my children and wife are happy and healthy. I have a great occupation .. I am very grounded. But.

The there is that volatility I embrace as part of it all but I fear it too sometimes. For both of us.. all of us. It is nothing physically dangerous.. The anxiety she has makes me sad for her.. I have no control over it. I am just there when she needs me.. not to enable. Just to hold space or hold her.

The loneliness comes because I don't get held back much. I mean I don't really need it right now. My ego is fine.

I had this brain tumor a few years back.. and she was there for me.. she held me then...hell.. she wiped my ass then. .. and then something happened. She thought I was dying. I kind of was . I briefly did. . but then another surgery and I got better. But I was too needy for a while and she was still thinking I was leaving her (to die) I think.

So a time we might have pulled closer got all fucked up and ended up in separation because of both our insecurities.

I am fine now.. fully functional (except ED if I do porn) the tumor has not returned for more than three years. But the emotional peripheral damage was severe for everybody.

I think if our relationship had healthy sexual intimacy we could have survived this upheaval without separation.. but who knows?

So I don't think I mentioned this before here.. maybe I did. But I don't want to use it as an excuse for my behavior or blame fate etc.

I really do hope karezza helps us. We are on such a rocky path. Strewn with love and loyalty and betrayal and fear and history. The main one in our path is love though. I will not give up on it.

Thank you for listening to me go on and on... on a lonely Sunday evening.

Geeze

So happy you're recovered. I'd be impatient to get the show on the road too. You must know better than most of us that life is precious.

That said, your relationship actually sounds like progress is rapid. More rapid than even I thought it would be. I don't blame you for being restless, but when you look back I think you'll be amazed at how quickly things healed. Here's an excerpt from a book I use a lot:

Calculated Waiting:

You may be awaiting the outcome of a decision that could greatly affect you. If you worry about it you will grow inwardly confused and succumb to chaos and fear. You will waste valuable energy through agitation. When the time does come to act, your judment may be impaired.

In order to attain your aim, you must wait to act until circumstances are in your favor. Inwardly bide your time and nourish and strengthen yourself for the future. Through careful observation attempt to see things without illusions or fears. Face the facts. If you are aware of your shortcomings and advantages, you will know what to do when the time comes. Ultimately you will meet with success.

This time will put your confidence to a test. It is now that you must make a show of confidence. Do not express your doubts about the past or the future. Indulge totally in the present. Keep your thoughts and words on a positive note and maintain an assured and cheerful attitude. In this way you will win the confidence of others and fortify your own certainty.

All partries are involved in a situation that requires calculated and good-natured waiting. Those involved should realize that the situation is out of any one person's hands. Destiny is at work here. Any action would be a foolish overreaction, so nourish one another with cheerfulness and reassurance instead.

Tortoise,

Tortoise,
Thanks for sharing. There's a certain type of story that I have noticed is missing in the world: we have boy-meets-girls stories, but where are the stories of the modern knight, the modern man fighting with integrity and selflessness for Love? Sounds like you're committed to live out such a story. What an example and legacy for your kids. What a noble quest, regardless what happens.

I don't mean to stir up ego by glorifying 'you.' Just - I respect your integrity. May you boldly and courageously keep on!

I have also wondered where the Princes are

and the Knights, who will brave the dragons and the forests of thorns to get to his love. Where did they go? In another realm?

I had a lover who I thought was one of those, but when the going got tough . . . he got going. Ran away. I waited years for him, totally believed in him. Nope, he married someone else. Maybe I am lucky he ran away, and now it's been nine years so I'm happy with myself now, but a bit skeered about any other guy who might show up. Where are the heroes? The men we women want to look up to? BTW, he was an engineer, and I never dreamed he would run away from a problem to be solved. LOL

Love and hugs, All.

Maybe to reassure you.. or

Maybe to reassure you.. or myself. People are basically good. Men are good .. women are good. We do get scared. We are little children that are expected to somehow develop into noble Knights of the realm .. Demigods .. with a complex contradiction in lessons and results and feelings throughout our development. There be no manual for this shit. Just our natural feelings and the influence of society and the emphasis on the quick fix.. the grass always being greener and not knowing how to approach making the beautiful lawn you already have thrive.

Not to be too gung ho .. but reading CPA gave me a revelation. I knew it was there. The depression.. the anxiety .. my deep love for my partner being torn apart by an unknown source..

The culprit .. biological diversification.

Knights in shining armor.. men of honor are trying to be present. Inside them are hundreds of thousands of years of nature trying to kill their line off .. influencing them to spread their seed. Now I know this sounds like a rationalization for immature hedonistic (my word of the week) behavior.. but I feel it to be the truth. There is no other rational explanation for such irrational dismissal of love by so many. the divorce rate is astronomically high. Happy.. true love.. stars in their eyes goes to hell in such a short time.. it is astounding when I think about it.. Like we are puppets.

The dragon we Knights must slay is our own biological programming.. which is there wherever we turn. Not just intrinsic to our bodies but all forms of media in our society bombard us with unmixed direct superficial sexual dragonsfire.

We simply know no better and nothing helps us to understand our irrational urges and behaviors.... outside of a relatively tiny drop of a book (no offense) in a sea of self help books. Why this idea doesn't catch on like wildfire is a bit of a mystery to me. I guess it is difficult when he dragon can fly from one bed to another and feel so good and strong.. men don't want to give that up for virtue and love.. well some do.. but most of them don't know any other way anyway.

People turn to religon .. which most of the time simply attempts to condemn and deny our biological proclivities through guilt or fear.. yeah that will work. Half the time it just makes being bad more enticing.

My basic point (stolen from CPA) is our biological bodies have evolved to make us strong and diverse.. but our etherial loving souls need eons .. ages of time to evolve to anywhere near the perfection or efficiency our biological bodies have. Why this lag behind .. I don't know.. maybe flesh and blood is easier to manage than energy of Aeither. Like trying to manage and recreate the feeling you get from a first kiss.. just can't be recreated perfectly twice.. magic .. real magic like that cannot be defined with words .. poetry touches on it ... or the tingling I feel with certain arrangements of music... opera .. classical .. even some pop songs.. .. not to be too predictable .. but some scenes or songs in movies like Titanic. romance.. tragedy .. it is created in the arts to mimic our lessons and feelings in life.. we know they are there.. but our biology promotes such dualism. We are struggling to evolve into perfect magical beings.. ok.. so I probably am getting too far out there. :)

So to go further out in space I have jumped to another conclusion that helps my hope for why all of this happens. Why so much sorrow when all we do is try to be happy.

The men and women who do have a bit of a grasp of what their bodies and brains are doing to their hearts and souls are evolutionarily a bit more advanced on the road to whatever our destination is.. if there is one.. you know.. purpose of life stuff.

The dance of yin and yang and the interactions between souls is much deeper than I can fathom at my crude level .. waiting for my evolution with my lover. But I do know something beautiful is there and I am trying and allowing the space for my evolution to happen.. or not.. if not in this lifetime.. maybe the next.

But this is just how I feel. I know I have a soul that is so much bigger and transcends this beautiful complex body that is simply trying to propagate. It is all innocent and just how it is. My body is a big part of me right now but it doesn't run the show anymore.. My soul is meant for better things than constantly scheming how to best spurt my seed in another beautiful body. I am not that simple.. I am not superior to anyone.. I just recognized my mutual weakness so I can quit hurting myself and others.

End of rant. :

I hope it will catch on like wildfire

[quote=Tortoise]Why this idea doesn't catch on like wildfire is a bit of a mystery to me. [/quote]

Because

- it's a paradigm shift that can't be understood from within the old paradigm
- it requires consciousness, which most people don't have
- it requires self-control, which isn't always easy in the moment
- it requires patience; results are subtle at first, and accrue slowly, whereas orgasm feels good right now
- there is little research on the topic for people to point to (the two week cycle is real, but there is only anectodal evidence of it)
- the topic of sex isn't spoken about openly

At first, the idea seemed a little crazy even to me, and I've been working on myself for years. I have described it to the men in my men's group (all of whom have worked on themselves for years), and mostly got strange looks.

I think we (here in the US) live in a consumption-driven society of convenience. Collectively, we value things that are quick, easy and disposable. Why would our relationships be any different? To make matters worse, we don't talk openly about sex.

Maybe things will improve when the "internet porn experiment" begins to reach some critical tipping point, and people begin to search for solutions in large numbers. I read that it already has in Japan, having made its way up to the country's top leadership. People there are preferring solitary lives with their porn and perversions instead of having relationships and starting families, causing a decline in new births. At some point, it will have to be dealt with. It's just a question of how long it will take.

I enjoyed these thoughts.

I enjoyed these thoughts.

You say that people are basically good, scared little children. I'd love to believe that, but what I experience is that men look at me like they want to have my body and then break all my bones. It's frightening to know that these drugged-up people are also equally drugged up on porn, and whatever they are probably imagining is terrifying. If I lived among more urbane, highly educated people, I might have a different view. But it looks like there's something in mankind, myself included, that ain't right.

Who knows?

Most days it's hard to be optimistic that this little blind spot in humans can be corrected, or at least illuminated so we all forgive ourselves and each other. Certainly, I've not been doing much to get the word out of late. My inner optimist says it's because the message will have to go in some other way than via a forum and blog posts. That's probably right. Of course, that doesn't mean that I value exchanges like these any less. They're definitely balm for my soul.

I, too, think the "internet porn piece" is going to turn out to be a springboard for greater knowledge about human sexuality. Already, younger guys are figuring out that they have been completely misled. But how...and when...that will all play out, I have no idea. I find it interesting that I've been encouraged to support Gary in working almost exclusively on the internet-porn front for the last few years - even though my heart lies here, with the reuniting principle. Maybe it will all fit together someday.

Anyway, I love hearing your insightful musings. I feel strongly that the first step is for each of us to get ourselves in "working order" and to "live" the ideas so we learn both their potential...and an enormous depth of compassion for what a monumental switch it is to choose to take signals from something other than our gentials/reward circuitry. Makes me think of the first pilots who flew based on radar when they couldn't see a thing. At least there, they had enormous incentive. Here, the "downside" isn't perceived as so awful, so it's hard to muster up the motivation to choose "radar" - at least in the moment.

As for men's groups, etc., I don't know if this would help, but this article probably has the shortest mainstream account of the post-orgasmic "hangover" evidence, including references to some supporting research. Why Stop Orgasm Research at Climax?

And Undying, I hear you. I imagine that men feel the same way about "gold diggers" - women who are also completely driven (beyond the point of basic integrity) by a biological program based on getting, rather than giving. Same problem, different flavor.

Hi undying :)

Hi undying :)

Yes I am in almost a nirvana like atmosphere where I live. It is however where I have elected to live. Well.. kind of.. I was born here and stay here. A moderately rural area.. not a lot of money but a good balance of those who are basically good on the outside combine with a few who appear lost and angry.. and everyone in between... So my experience is much different than yours.. I have travelled all over this planet (40+ countries) and see a similar pattern everywhere. The countrysides the smaller towns.. although poorer in some ways.. are seemingly happier and safer. "safety in numbers" only goes so far . This is a gross generalization.. but in my experience it has survived as opinion. The denser the population the more fear and anger and resentment of poverty between the have and have nots.. and violence. The "ghettos" of the world are the fermenting vats of fear and anger in humanity.. I think it may have always been this way. What a cutting edge place to live though. I couldn't handle it probably. I can for a week or two as an experiment.. but for the extreme tension to be a way of life.. I don't think I could meditate enough.. probably become a hermit in a basement with bars on the little windows and Buddha with candles in the corner. :) so I admire your strength.

I will quote Oprah here.. "surround yourself with only people who are going to lift you higher"

Now that may at first sound like a contradiction of philosophy by me.. a man who I has chosen a challenging woman.. but when I look deeper it is not. She was very angry and full of fear on the surface at first glance.. like a wild animal.. this appearance is her defense from this literally cruel world we all live in. But inside her I could see the sweetness that had been trampled on. Some people run.. some people stay and fight.. some people check out.. it is all our lessons to learn.. hopefully all grow in time. or die to do it over again until the lesson starts to dawn on them.

I might expand on the Oprah oracle here.. I submit I will grow more if I surround myself with those who most challenge me .. rather than the obvious shiny people who lift me higher.. that is all nice and good to live in a nirvana of well behaved people and only surround yourself with them.. as many celebrities can economically afford to do... but I say that the challenging people I naturally just don't want to be around are the ones that lift me higher in the overall scheme of things.. yes... it tears me down a lot at first.. but isnt that the way of all growth.. weightlifting.. excercise tears muscle down.. to build a beautiful strong body.. seems like there could be a parallel in soul here . Not allowing their shit to bring me down and make their negative state about me.... I do grow because I see them in me. .. the parts I don't wan't to take me over.. hate.. I can't afford to hate them.. they don't want my pity.. they want to crush me to rise artificially higher in ther ego.. it is their illusion of what will make them happy. . I see my fears in them so I fear... I see what hell is.... infact embracing and having compassion for them.. understanding their private hell and having compassion in my heart for them.. even though they want to break all my bones and rape me... that is what lifts me higher.. I am not revelling in their misery or saying wow I could be that bad off... I am just recognizing the frailties of people and how easy it is to go there.. I see a huge angry man eyes stare at me.. behind thowe eyes is a machete or gun or demented erect penis wanting to split me in half to relieve his fear.. and I fear for humanity.. how much damage has the world done to us.. he .. I feel his anger and fear. First I get the fuck out of the immediate situation rather than getting in any form of a pissing match.. then I contemplate and meditate on his energy,, I send him love.. love he has never known.. how much of a hell he is in.. how many lifetimes to heal?

Does this not being right come frome innate evil? the "devil" ...?.. or deep.. deep fear and hate propagated generation after generation? Many just know no difference.. love is a pipe dream that has been twisted beyond recognition for some.. we seek excape through drus or aslchohol.. or anything just to quiet the demons in our head.. to make the vacant lots with garbage strewn about blur into something we arent angry or sad about.. so we don't notice anything.. we sespecially don't notice the "weeds" pushing their way up through the cracks in the concrete and forming a beautiful tiny yellow flower. There is no recognition of beauty if we numb ourselves to all the subtleties or even extremes we have to face. Again man is just trying to survive.. this is innocent.. not evil. it is all our biology of how to simply survive in a war zone... there is no time for happy touchy feely stuff when everyone is trying to grind my bones to make their bread. Terrible shit goes down without "justice" but the actions and terrible damage is reflected back on the perpetrator.. puts them deeper in thier darkness.. the victim is damaged or dead.. but their essence is only lifted up by falling to vulnerability.. .. Ok so.. again I am out in space here.. sorry.

I recognize your situation is dangerous.. very dangerous. I also recognise the reason for the chaos is fear that nobody can really fix. Time and death and destruction and violence often plays out with these angry fearful desperate people. I am so sad for thier suffering.. your suffering. it is my suffering. humanities suffering coming to a head and nobody knows what to do. I don't .. other than to know deep down we are all good. It will never be seen in so many people because of thier karmic path.. but it is there.

I recognise too that you are a diamond in this rough.. that is hope. You are the hope for mankind.. yes that sounds dramatic but it is true. The presence of your good .. a more realized soul amongst the angry wandering ones does really help. You will likely see others like you out there. Someday after we all beat our heads against the wall long enough.. many lifetimes from now.. they may be able to look back and see why there was so much suffering and anger and fear.

I mean really.. do people ever learn anything the easy way? It is in our collective nature to fall down and scrape our knees and bruise our diapered ass over and over until we are strong enough and have reached balance. I think a lot of life just ain't right because it is the only way most can learn. We would never read the easy to understand instructions anyway. You live in a weight room with some heavy duty machines and bars loaded to bending.. and breaking.. challenging everyone.. I don't envy you.. but you have my respect.

Don't lose hope or cling too much to the story.

My theory

Fear (greed, victimhood, scarcity-think, superiority, neediness..etc, etc.) comes ultimately from a neurochemical sense of lack. And when we learn to reduce that via karezza or meditation or any/all of a number of traditional practices, we reduce our own fear...and consequently change our experience of the world.

However, right now, our culture does many, many things that urge us to feel a greater sense of lack. Harmony, decency and energy for nurturing ourselves and others is thus in short supply.

Education about the reward circuitry seems the key to a major change.

It means a lot to me that you

It means a lot to me that you were willing to do the thought experiment of walking a mile in my shoes. A whole lot. It is so affirming, encouraging to hear you acknowledge why it is frightening and dangerous and yet that it can make a difference to be here, feeling through the hate and fear that's bubbling over and finding the... let's call it the Neighbor, who's inside of all that fear and hate and can really benefit from some invisible compassion from me.

[quote]understanding their private hell and having compassion in my heart for them.. [/quote]

Yes. Amen to that.

there are also a lot of human beings here, who are operating out of fear, anger, hate, drugs, etc. to the point that you better not count on them to be civil and self controlled.

But I don't go out at night, etc. We stay here because really nothing will happen (unless it does.) But still I think on a daily basis, what would I do? Would I be able to be love? I always think of a story I heard (that I do "cling to" whether or not it's true) about a girl in Russia a long time ago who was 12 or 14 and was put into jail to be "reformed," so she would stop telling people about Christ. Supposedly they brought in a rape specialist to rape her to try to get her to "reform," and so this huge, extremely ugly, hardened man came into her cell, and she smiled a huge smile and said something like, "God loves you and I love you." He sat down and wept, they talked like brother and loving sister, and, the story goes, he was later killed for his refusal to "reform" and follow orders.

I always wonder: would I have that in me? When it counts? what if the Angry Man tears me open and finds only fear in there, not love? (Not that I'm angling to find out.)

So, the fear I'm dealing with makes me want to exercise love, get strong in love, because love can conquer fear. Like you said, about the weight machines.

Boy, I really appreciate your thoughts...

Gathering scraps

I stick by what I said: there's something messed up inside mankind, including me. You're right that we all need compassion. You're right that it's kind of hokey and unhelpful to imagine "evil" or the "devil" inside of people. But then, the original sin was to "get involved" in the knowledge of good and evil. Really, the whole question of good and evil is a detour.

When I look into my own being, I know I need compassion. I need forgiveness because I haven't even "done my best" with the cards in my hand and the crazy biological drives that I've inherited. I sense it's critical for me, personally, to forgive everyone and be forgiven by everyone. I sense that need. If "basically good" means we're all ok and don't need to be forgiven, that doesn't ring true for me, but I don't think that's exactly what you meant.

We're all in a messed up sick soup together. I can't judge anybody because I know there's enough "sickness" in me that in different circumstances, I could have ended up a crack mother or an arms dealer or whatever.

More scraps

4. The looks/thoughts seem SO much less terrifying now that you walked me through them. It's like the difference between a movie monster that is left to the imagination (terrifying) and one that is shown.

5. I wonder how this environment affects our marriage. In one way I'm sure the constant atmosphere of aggressive masculine energy makes it harder for me to open to the masculine in my husband. In another way, I can relax and take a break from hyper awareness when he's around. He provides security, and I appreciate it on a deep level.