Does Karezza work better with real arousal?

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Submitted by emerson on
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For the past 30 days Sparkles has not been particularly aroused during our almost daily sexual intercourse. She says she's enjoyed it, but hasn't felt that much. I've enjoyed it a lot.

Today we had a session and then we got to hugging and kissing afterwards and she got aroused. When she got on top of me Mr. P. went soft and then she had me get her to climax with my hand.

My point is, for ED porn guys reading this, we had a lot of intercourse almost every day, including today, and after Mr. P. decided he had enough, I was able to satisfy my woman with my hand. I would have preferred my tongue but she preferred my hand at the time. I would have liked to have her come on top of me with my penis inside her but I don't get that choice. I'm not complaining, I was hard for a long time and had a good time. And I'm still ready for more. I didn't come (and didn't want to.)

Anyway, here's my main question.

This is her first time really being aroused in about a month. I'm wondering if this whole Karezza learning experience is leading to her being more aroused. Maybe she was too passive before. Maybe this is all better if she gets kind of worked up but not *that* worked up. (Of course she got worked up today but I mean less than wanting an orgasm but more than over this past month.)

For me, when we snuggle I get aroused. She doesn't. There is a different connection between snuggling/relaxation/arousal. But when we have sexual intercourse, for me it's terrific and for her, she doesn't feel much. So maybe this experience today is designed to lead us to some middle ground.

What do you think?

 

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My belief~

Emerson, as far as what happened to your erection when she climbed on top, from what I have read and from what I have experienced, I think it has to do with her taking the "masculine/aggressive" role, which is actually not conducive to passion for a man. The more receptive I am (not passive, but open and accepting and present), the more aroused and drawn to me my beloved becomes. And for me, my breasts are the key to my passion and his.

I've said it before, but for the woman to derive the extremely deep pleasure tantra/karezza has to offer, it has to come from inside *her*~~she has to want to learn about it and practice it. I don't see how it can happen any other way. Keep plugging along is my only advice to you! Perhaps one day she'll get curious enough to want to explore it (intellectually) herself.

P.S.

I'm not saying that a woman being on top is masculine/aggressive (I am often on top, but in a relaxed, non-orgasm-seeking way). What I mean is she went from being receptive to being "hungry" and that is what can kill a man's erection.

you have no idea

how helpful your response is. This is how it felt like to me. Exactly how it felt. Very hungry and that is why I felt my penis retreated. Thank you for spelling it out. It was really obvious but I didn't quite see it.

I'm hoping I can get her to read something. I will try again. We are communicating about this more. She even asked me again today (this comes up often it seems) if I'm sure that I'm okay with not having an orgasm. That was before she had hers :)

And I do see this takes time. I really think she has flatlined this month. All month. I think that is natural. I'm flatlining too, in a way. It's a huge change in body and brain. Why wouldn't there be low dopamine and so forth?

On a related topic, it's been a month since her last orgasm.

Amazingly I could see a big retreat away from me for a few hours after. She bolted right away and was distant for awhile. Now it has stabilized but the ripple was unmistakable after orgasm. Striking really.

(Women act aggressive and

(Women act aggressive and then... or) men experience ED and then women become insecure and then men become insecure. Maybe women are more in control than they realize and it manifests in a way that drives the partners apart. This might seem bad to both partners, but could be a rather clever checksum, the purpose of which isn't clear. Perhaps there is a compatibility nuance to this that hasn't been examined. At the very least, we're all marvels.

well it's a tough gear switch for me (and her probably)

going from the relaxation-arousal to the excitation-tension-orgasmic arousal is tough. I think my wife's brain hasn't figured it out yet. I haven't completely either, that's for sure.

We were doing the relaxed Karezza stuff and then the kissing became very aroused and erotic. I guess my penis felt intimidated. I've always enjoyed my wife on top and usually (not always) been able to maintain my erection that way but this felt different, like sudden and jarring. I'm not saying I didn't enjoy it. I liked her orgasm quite a lot. But it was the opposite of Karezza and pulled me suddenly out of that zone into the aggressive hungry zone. I guess my penis didn't like it. And Rachel is right, I think that is how my brain interpreted it, as a kind of aggressive seeking masculine thing and my penis doesn't work that way. I wish it did but it doesn't.

 

I didn't mean to suggest

I didn't mean to suggest wrongness to either sex or that learning to kill the engines and glide is easy. Perhaps we all need to trust the penis more. It's kind of the referee. I just don't see ED as indicating anything wrong other than being human. If you get a chill, you do something. If you get ED, both partners need to think about what they can do without judgment or determination that erection is any more right than ED under those exact circumstances. Even the name ED is quite loaded. Always have an erection on cue is also ED.

in an ideal world you are right

but in a human world, at least in my world, there is still sometimes concern if I lose my erection when I "shouldn't".

I think my mantra "trust the penis" is really true. But sometimes I have trouble accepting that beyond an intellectual level although of course it *is* true.

This has all revealed to me years ago that no "I" is really in control of anything. And that the idea of "I" is just another story, another thought. That led me to tremendous self-realization. But again, the organism doesn't always respond that way and sometimes what one believes at one level isn't what one believes on another.

Reality is the ideal plus or

Reality is the ideal plus or minus a human margin of error. If one keeps shifting the ideal to account for expected error, the system destabilizes and no one can figure out where the problem lies. Error serves an ideal purpose too as it lets things fit together without being perfect. The penis is no more perfect than the brain worrying about what the penis is doing.

It has less to do with our minds

And more to do with how our bodies work (polarity).

When a woman takes the more masculine role (give me an orgasm right now), her energy is moving downward rather than upward. For an erection to happen, a man needs to be pulled upward and inside a woman, toward her heart.

I have experimented with this myself many times and I can tell it is very true for me and my beloved. Also, any bit of distraction on my part will also cause him to lose his erection.

It's absolutely fascinating how the two bodies work together so beautifully. I believe in it. Yin, yang, chakras, energy, woo, whatever you want to call it. I'm sold on it 1000%. I hope you get to experiment some day soon, Freedom.

Thanks for the nuance. Next

Thanks for the nuance. Next time I'm at the receiving end of this I'm going to try heading it off by encouraging a few deep inhales.

It seems there must be something in the brain as well. Who knows. Erection isn't only body or we wouldn't have brain overstimulation making ED more frequent (although there is certainly a body aspect, e.g., touch sensitivity). Also, how would distraction play into things if it were only body on the female side of the process?

Do you find mental focus works better or blurred receptiveness to whatever the body does?

I'll get my days. I hope soon as well.

You are right~

It's both body and brain~~I think I was just trying to say that we don't realize how much the polarities matter and it's much more than the mind "games" at work. But the mind controls how the polarities work, so it's all connected. And yes, the man can "feel" when the woman's mind is not focused on the moment~~such as when we hear accounts here on the forum of men that had a "boring" karezza experience. It takes two minds, two bodies, to make it so exquisitely beautiful.

It takes mental focus to not get distracted by our mundane thoughts! But the whole third eye thing takes that mental focus and then blurs it...so hard to describe, but so fun to do!

Playing with the polarities

Playing with the polarities when eye gazing was fun. It didn't work equally well with all women. I guess some weren't paying attention. With the ones that were, I could see each woman's heart rate increase if I thought in one direction and decrease in the other. It was a little freaky as if I had a superpower. I had to go back and forth a few times to check I wasn't imagining things. I couldn't tell if she knew what I was doing. The woman it worked best with didn't stick around to inquire as to what she experiencing. I've also played with polarities when casually chatting to women. Sometimes I think it's doing something. It's so subtle. It's a lot to juggle normal interaction while being a closeted explorer. Maybe I need a pin "What? I was busy toying with your polarity." The polarity notion could make an intriguing dress tie or even garment. It could be explicit or perhaps subliminally embedded in a pattern. We can call it karezza wear.

I'm intrigued about your third eye experiences. Perhaps create a separate thread when you get a chance.

Mental focus

[quote=Rachel]It takes mental focus to not get distracted by our mundane thoughts![/quote]

I think this is where we may be coming unstuck. With conventional sex, our focus seems to be out of our hands. We're both so riveted by the mounting excitement, mundane thoughts couldn't get a look in. Absolutely no effort is required to maintain focus. With Karezza, especially 'relaxed' Karezza, our minds can, and do, wander. I don't have much difficulty pulling mine back to the here and now; but my wife has a harder time of it. Maybe that's because she's intrinsically less interested in non conventional lovemaking; maybe there are other reasons. Both of us agree, however, that having to 'work' at paying attention during sex is not what we want to be doing, every time. We're happy enough, if it's for 'training' purposes; but our experience has always been that the best moments in life are those when our attention focuses itself, rather than gets asked by us to go somewhere.

Would you say this process of 'directing attention' is something that eventually happens naturally; or is it a continuing discipline? Thinking about it, I suppose it could be both, because every time a deeper level of expanded awareness becomes automatic, there's always going to be something beyond it to learn to pay attention to.

Focus

It's hard at first because it's something new~~not skipping ahead to an impending orgasm, not thinking about all the little things the brain can come up with when the eyes are closed~~but once you master it somewhat, the pleasure center changes. You get an overwhelming sensation of pure bliss all throughout your body and genitals.

And from then on, you want to go back there, so you make sure you stay focused. You begin to see a sharp difference in sensations when you wander away from the present. So there is a reward there, a *huge* reward. And when your mind wanders way, the sex becomes empty. Do you see how that works? Once you experience it, you want to keep experiencing it, so you work to keep it going. But it has to be both people doing it together to get the entire circle of energy running through your bodies. It's so delicious; indescribable actually. Once you've really experienced it, you have no desire for the hollowness of conventional sex.

Bring it on

[quote=Rachel] Once you've really experienced it, you have no desire for the hollowness of conventional sex.[/quote]

It's my sense of this hovering in the wings that keeps me motivated!

Arousal is important, and how it happens is important, too.

And I also believe that it takes time - a number of months to restore the delicious sensitivity our bodies/brains were born with.  And just like rebooting from porn addiction arousal paths, we have to reboot from genital-orgasm focused arousal paths, and allow our natural full-body sensitivity to return.  In retrospect, I do think there is a flat-line period in going from very intensly focused orgasmic sex to the more full-body bliss that we now experience with Karezza. It can feel very low sensation and sort of boring - and having an orgasm seems like it will make that flat feeling end on a better note.  Ahhh, but then there's that pesky hangover. 

 

Here's an old post of mine: http://www.reuniting.info/node/4069

 

How did we get to our current Karezza love life?  By having mostly lots of slower regular sex, and trying (and failing often) to avoid orgasm.  We were lucky to avoid orgasm one out of three times at first.  But we kept trying - having sex everyday for awhile, then every other day, we didn't know at the time we were retraining our brains, not just our bodies. I thought we were just learning a new 'technique'. I went through a phase where I actually had to place my hand between us in such a way as to prevent clitoral stimulation entirely - as it had become painfully annoying, and interferred with the more heart centered feelings I was begining to experience. The siren call of orgasm is REALLY loud.  You need hearing protection. cheeky  Now it doesn't matter. We also haven't experienced my being on top interferring with Karezza or my partner's erection.   We change positions at least a couple of times during sex/Karezza, and don't have a specific preference for any position. The four we use the most are  Scissors, Missionary, Woman on top and a sort of missionary scissors. 

 

My partner does not participate in this site, though he will read a post if I hand him my laptop.  He hasn't made an effort to learn about Karezza beyond a short attempt to read Tantric Sex for Men.  But he only got about 1/2 way through it before he said he just couldn't read any more of it.  Too much spiritual "woo" for him.  And I agree with him on that, the 'woo' is a big issue for both of us.  But I read a lot more than he does, so I read them all, hard as it was, and I now believe that under all the 'woo' is simply a method of retraining our brains, but that it helps some people to visualize it as energy moving through chakras or for me, as nerve impulses flowing through our spinal/parasympatheic nerves, through our eyes, lips, breasts or genitals.  This allows us to direct focus on the more subtle sensations during the retraining.

 

My advice is to just keep doing what you're doing.  Don't expect to get there fast.  You're paving over a lifetime of sexual ruts and potholes. 

 

Quizure

I think

It's much easier for a woman to teach karezza to a man that knows nothing about it than vice versa. A man will follow a woman's relaxation and follow her rhythm, but a woman who is not interested in karezza (or thinks she's not interested) is not going to care *what* a man does~~so many women are going to rebel against something that is going to make sex last even LONGER, lol. (you usually won't get that argument from men)

I think the men who are kind of going this alone have the harder task, I really do. Especially those in a long-term relationship~~

I suspect you are right

although I can't compare this to anything else. My wife is willing to go along because I'm setting the example and leading the way and she is game given how I've stuck to my resolve. That has to be pretty impressive, if I do say so myself :) A man who gives up orgasms, masturbation and porn. And I've become so in love with her it's made her very happy even if my intensity is sometimes a bit much. But she loves "the new me".

I'm wondering if there isn't something here -- if she just needs to become "a little" aroused when we make love. That's what I'm wondering. Maybe that will help her activate the feelings in her vagina and breasts that she says she hasn't really had. Dunno.

this has been completely helpful also

Thank you so much. I am so fortunate to have read this. I read the link to, THANK YOU Quizure and Rachel. It is super encouraging and you have no idea how much these comments help me and spilling my guts out about what's going on. I so appreciate it.

I don't expect to get there fast. I'm grateful my wife is so willing to go along. I found us settling into the familiar groove there at the end but that is what she wanted and I want her to have her space and her autonomy so I had already decided to go with whatever she wanted and I'm glad I did.

[quote]I now believe that under all the 'woo' is simply a method of retraining our brains, but that it helps some people to visualize it as energy moving through chakras or for me, as nerve impulses flowing through our spinal/parasympatheic nerves, through our eyes, lips, breasts or genitals.  This allows us to direct focus on the more subtle sensations during the retraining.[/quote]

I think Sparkles feels this way too  -- that the energy stuff is woo-woo out there. I happen to feel it myself and I don't know what it is but I think it's very important to feel it although you can mentally model it differently, as nerve impulses for instance, than energy or chi or whatnot. I think what I really need to do is read some of Richardson to her, although I am not sure she'll sit still for that :)

If you can be open

If you and your wife can be open and willing to try new things (even things that seem like "woo" lol), you might be amazed at how your experience together can start to feel like an out-of-body experience.

We have progressed to the point where we've learned to engage our "third eye" during sex (a strange word for something very real and very amazing) and it has taken things to yet another level. The funny thing is I didn't even notice the part about "third eye" the first time I read "Tantric Orgasm for Women." Now in my second (or third?) reading, it jumped out at me as something I needed to try. I think your mind accepts new things when it's good and ready and not before.

There's a whole world of feeling and being out there that I never even knew existed. I feel so blessed to be at this point in my life, with this man, with this amount of love.

i just re-read this section, thank you, of the book

and it is something I totally missed. There are so many parts of these books that I've missed. As you say, not ready, don't even see it. Ready, then you see it.

This whole chapter actually was very helpful. The stuff about the third eye, that's really cool, and the solar plexus, very cool. But for me, reading accounts of other women was ultra helpful and really helped me connect this morning to the need to just accept what is and be fine with it, really.

Thank you.

I'm curious

When you were reading the part about the third eye and the solar plexus, did you try to do the exercises she suggests or were you too skeptical? Because when you do the exercise, you can feel the sensations in your genitals~~really! It's quite lovely and when you do it while making love it can give you the feeling of being so high, so free, so lost in the moment that you transcend your own body. But maybe you have to progress in tantra first and then you will feel it? I'm not sure how it works~~we've been going at this for a long time now and it felt right to take this next step.

A couple of weekends ago, my lover and I were lying on the bed and I pulled the book out and read that part to him and we both did it together, lying side-by-side. And then he said it's something he has pretty much always done during sex, he just didn't know there was a name for it (sort of like your eyes rolling back in your head). It's funny because most of the time, even though I'm the one reading about tantra, I feel he is the one teaching *me*~~his soft, gentle way is what got this whole ball rolling in the first place. He has an innate sense of how to do things and I have to study it and be a student because it's not innate to me as it is to him.

i did the exercises

I didn't feel it in the genitals until you mentioned it. Then I did it again and felt that warmth there. Both made perfect sense to me and connected with me instantly. I can feel the third eye all the time when I pay attention to it. I always have, never thought about it so wasn't aware of it. And I have never thought about this in connection with sexuality until now. Thank you.

So everyone can know what we

So everyone can know what we're talking about.

The third eye is "so called because its tissues resemble the retina of the real eyes." There's no source so I can't tell how woo that is. Anyone know more about this?

Awareness and Sensitivity Exercise
The Solar Plexus and the Third Eye
While you are making love—or any time, as a matter of fact—it is possible to intensify the focus on the solar plexus area by looking down to the point of your nose, which will give the sensation of the eyes crossing. Holding this eye position for a few moments enables you to sense into the solar plexus very deeply.

To help activate the third eye, between the eyebrows, almost close the eyelids and then start flickering them up and down very quickly while at the same time looking upward, directing your eyes toward the center of your forehead. Again there will be the sensation of the eyes
crossing. Gradually look back as far as you can without strain. After a few attempts at this you will begin to get the sensation of something locking or converging in the area between the eyebrows. Close your eyes and continue to hold awareness at the third eye—the sensations
at this energy point will be greatly intensified. You may only be able to do this for a few short seconds at first, but that is a good start.

Try these two practices on your own first before trying them during lovemaking. You can actually do them in sequence, looking down to the solar plexus, then looking up to the third eye a few minutes later, then down again and up again three or four times.

Circling energy through the microcosmic orbit, or lifting the lip corners into an inner smile, or simply placing the tongue on the soft palate, or connecting with the solar plexus or the third eye—the stimulation of all or any of these energy phenomena even just for a few seconds will have an impact on the sexual experience, and can be utilized at will during lovemaking.

-Tantric Orgasm for Women by Diana Richardson p.__

This is also a good practice for meditation or to regain focus if feeling distracted. It's probably good for the eye muscles as well.

I'm exploring facial widening and nasal widening as an alternate means of inner smile. I'm curious about the ways that we can feel an inner smile without moving the lips at all.

The practices sound a bit

The practices sound a bit like looking at those "Magic Eye" images - 3D illusions created using the Salinsky Dot...pictures that look like a meaningless repetitive pattern but if you cross your eyes and relax them, you can see a 3D image.

Could be.

Could be.

Practice receiving information, December 22, 2007
By Josephine Gross, Ph.D. (CA)
This review is from: Magic Eye, Vol. 2 (Hardcover)

What I love most about these books (I have Magic Eye I as well) is how I can practice 'receiving' an image. In order to see the image, you have to be very focused yet very open. You stare at it with soft eyes and readiness, then when your eyes are in the right position and the 3-D image starts to appear, you can't start 'grabbing' it with your eyes or it disappears. You have to be very still and wait and then it's as if someone turns a nob and this crisp picture shows up with amazing depth. It is a mindset that we don't practice much in our busy lives of doing and accomplishing things. A great lesson to be reminded of, showing how easy it is to let the most precious things come to us, if we can be still and present enough to receive and perceive. I look at the pictures at night before I go to sleep, or when I want to 'download' information from my subconscious mind. I know that practicing this 'receiving' muscle helps my intuition. These books are worth every penny!

-http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Eye-Thing-Enterprises-Vol/dp/B0041T4S2M

Thanks, Freedom

I am at the point now where when I close my eyes and focus on the third eye, my vagina automatically pulsates~~you have to really reach back into the forehead to get that to happen and when you do it during lovemaking, it's so good (better than any orgasm I've ever had). Pure bliss.

Movement

What struck me when I read your post was that this was movement. "Hungry" may not be where you both want to ultimately go but it sounded to me like this was a change, hence, some movement. If her sexual being is waking up from being locked down and frozen then there may be a period of some masculine within the feminine. I have observed it before, that when a woman begins to thaw sexually there can be a period where she want to be in the drivers seat, so to speak for a bit. If this is the case with Sparkles then I would consider it positive forward movement on the way to something deeper and fuller. You may need to hang on to your hat for a while as she expands into her own, not a bad thing really.

My wife did this when I first started being non-orgasmic. She took charge for a while until things leveled out and then we moved together. I gave her all the orgasms she wanted until she had had enough. I think she needed that time to do whatever she wanted. I dont think this is always the case, but women can end up "serving" men sexually so much that when they do start to move into their own sexual being they may want a period of being more directive which is clearly a step up from being somewhat numb or locked down. I really cant say with your wife but it is something to consider. If this is the case you wouldnt want to inadvertently shut her back down because it isnt the movement you want in the long run. Movement is good which leads to new places.

I agree~

For me, it has been an interesting challenge to learn how to be as desirous of my beloved as I am while not being needy/greedy/hungry. We learn so much from what we see in the media and don't realize how it doesn't really work well that way in real life (both men *and* women shut down when we try to take rather than just be).

When we can figure out how to be truly open and relaxed and porous and present...that is how we give the gift of ourselves to each other.

it could be, but...

It felt like a return of the same old same old, to me. The way we used to do things. It feels like what she is more accustomed to, just exactly what used to get her/us off before.

That said, I realize really and truly how important it is to give Sparkles space to be and do what she wants. This is a striking realization for me, a letting go that is very, very sweet actually as I see how real it is, how connected it is to everything else in my life that I "make happen" but really don't. It just happens. I am seeing how valuable it is to really be quiet in my life, to slow down and decide what should be done with the minimum of effort. Seeing what reality is "telling" me, and responding accordingly, rather than imposing my will and getting nowhere except frustrated.

So it's very positive in this sense: she showed me what *she* wanted and I responded. I'm happy about that. I love it when she tells me what she wants or doesn't want, even if it's something I don't want to hear. I feel much more loved and serene when she is telling me what her wishes are.

I've also stopped worrying too much about whether she wants intercourse every day or so. I told her last night, I think this is healthy for her and me. And the thing I realized today, from reading these comments again, and reading a section of Richardson's book, Tantric Orgasm for Women, that this is all about what you've said before, Darryl. About my accepting what is and about my position relative to the rest of reality, my wife, etc.

I think the current reversals n my business life are telling me the same thing. And I think the result has already been the foundation for amazing prosperity to continue and build in my life, starting with as I had called it, sexual prosperity. From accepting what is:

1. She isn't feeling anything in her vagina when we have intercourse. That's fine. Meanwhile we are having great sex and a great connection and she isn't supposed to feel anything (for now).

2. Having sexual intercourse almost every day is great, healthy and healing. And she's into it enough to want to do it with me. If she wasn't she'd say so. I think it's great for us even if she isn't totally "feeling" like it. I'm okay with that now. I see so much benefit in it that it's okay with me.

3. The more space I give her, the better I feel. The less hungry, needy and smothering I am, the better it feels when she responds. Then it's real for me, and so much sweeter than anything I try to force. This morning, we awakened, we hugged and I said, "we can get up now, we can do whatever, I'm fine with what you want." And she invited me in. And when we were making love, I was less needy and pulled back a little and let her do some of the work, if that makes sense. And she did. 

I think this is exactly where we need to be on this road. It will take awhile, I can see that, maybe 6 months. But it is incredibly rewarding for me and spilling over into real life, amazingly.

 

 

same old same old

And last night Sparkles gave me the talk about:

1. "I don't always feel like doing stuff (having intercourse.)"

2. "My sex drive isn't strong like yours"

3. "I may never develop a strong sex drive like you have"

I agreed. Who knows.

But I also told her she said identical things post-O last time a month ago. Verbatim. And that she had been very distant for a few hours after O, and this is passion cycle stuff. And that this is all fine with me. I explained that we are both rebooting in a sense and flatlining libido and sensation is a normal part of that. Who knows what the future will bring. I tried to explain it in a way as not to be annoying. I'm doing the reading and she isn't, so who is going to explain this to her if not me? I really think I did a good job, too.

And this morning I was very careful to be respectful of what she wanted and give her space when we woke up. And she offered to let me in, and we had a sweet round of intercourse. I tried not to be too hungry or needy and she responded more that way, initiating somewhat, although she doesn't "feel" much in her vagina at the moment, still. I was happy and felt good and she seems to be happy and feel good.

I am continuing to work on this giving her space and not being needy stuff. The more I do it, the better it is for both of us.

I dont buy it

I may be wrong, but something here is not what it seems. I wonder who she's trying to convince that she has virtually no libido, she did choose you after all. I'll wager that as soon as she gets absolutely no reaction from you she'll give up telling you how much she's not interested in sex. I've been with my wife for 29 years and I cant even remember the amount of power games we've played out. Ah, the joys of long term relationships. How about the next time she tells you about her lack of sexual interest, you say, "thats nice, how about a game of Scrabble instead". That ought to get an interest reaction.

well, thank you, I think this may be it!

She is interested in sex. Of course she is. But maybe she's not mentally in touch with her body.

The way porn guys are turned on in their brains about a woman but their penis doesn't respond. Kind of like that, maybe?

It doesn't feel like a power game to me.

However.

For the longest time, like 25 years, she's been the one who had to throttle me back. I've been the aggressive guy who always wants sex.

Maybe she kinda shut down from that? And from the male focused friction-orgasm sex especially in recent years when I often didn't even ejaculate inside her but needed to manually get myself off afterwards?

Maybe the only thing that was cool about it was her own orgasm, "O" Reliable (when it happened, maybe twice a month out of 8 times.)

Maybe?

And maybe she is as you would put it, kind of rehashing the past lives of women through the centuries, Darryl, in our relationship? Women as you put it "serving" these males like me in this male dominated realm?

And so it truly feels like she is shut down inside cuz she is!

That's what I think. I think this is oh so common. And I think it comes out with this form of sex, Karezza, because after all, remove the O and what do you have left? Nothing.

A big fat nothing.

Now, we have all of life and sensations and feelings that can rush into that nothing *at some point*.

But for the moment before things start to rush in, before the woman's mind gets re-attuned, before she has explored this nothing...there is really nothing in there filling in this emptiness. It just feels like nothing much, pleasant enough, and I like it, and it has produced much improved behavior in me, her guy, but otherwise, she ain't feeling it.

If this is so, then time will take care of it, time PLUS my really no giving a shit, my non-attachment to a particular outcome for real.

I can't do that though. I believe that this will change, that it will wake up inside her. At some point. I think this is typical flatlining for a woman who has shut down many a year ago without realizing it.

Something I read~

Right before I went to sleep last night, I picked up "Tantric Orgasm for Women" and this is the paragraph I read:

"Perhaps only a woman can really and truly break the cycle of unconsciousness in sex. When sex is balanced and in accord with her female design, a woman has some leverage, some authority in sex, and a new confidence in herself. Her man will be in wonder and even a bit awestruck to learn how the same elements--the penis and the vagina--can produce two such vastly different experiences." (I'm assuming she means the vast difference between conventional sex and tantra)

If you can hold on and know that if you do you will eventually be gifted the most wonderful sexual love you've ever known, it will all be so worth it. But the woman is the key. You may be having some great moments right now, but you have no idea how much better it gets when you are both on board the tantra train, lol.

thank you

that is what I am thinking too. I don't share that with Sparkles because it is "pressure-y" but it's what's in my heart. I know that I am experiencing feelings and sensations and a view of the world I never have ever thought existed, that is so marvelous that it has changed my whole life. It is the best thing to happen to me since being born, as I told my wife in a valentine I made for her the other day.

So I can only imagine how good this can be when she "wakes up" if and when. I can imagine when she feels 1% of what I feel how good it may get at that point. I wouldn't trade where we are at for anything, even "as is."

You are one of my big inspirations, everyone here who has commented has really helped me a lot and I am immeasurably grateful. I would never have gotten here without you, truly.

Yes, indeed!

[quote=emerson]I know that I am experiencing feelings and sensations and a view of the world I never have ever thought existed, that is so marvelous that it has changed my whole life. It is the best thing to happen to me since being born, as I told my wife in a valentine I made for her the other day.[/quote]

Me, too. Once you understand how this works and why, you can no longer see the world the same way. It is so profound. Women need this just as much as men do. I hope it happens for your wife, too. Smile

it will happen and here's why I think so

We are having so much fun, that's why.

I find myself just looking at her in awe kind of. And she sees me and looks about 20 years younger all of a sudden to me, and she beams and laughs and I laugh and we are both laughing. This happens all the time.

We are having such a good time.

I know she feels sometimes that i am too intense, and she worries about what if she never feels anything. But she gets the fact more and more that my new found ardor and love for her is permanent and there is a lot of humor and fun in our interactions. And that will make this all work at some point much better, when it's ready to work.

That's the thing. We have such wonderful interactions all the time. It just is impossible to me to see any way that this won't work out better and better.

Before you embarked on all of

Before you embarked on all of this Emerson, was your wife consciously and openly dissatisfied with your sex life? I mean, was the shift coming from you entirely, or did she also agree that something needed to change?

I got a great laugh out of "let's play scrabble"...I bet if my ex husband shrugged his shoulders and said that to me when he asked for sex (as always) my supposed constant lack of libido would have suddenly peaked right there and then! For me this was about doing everything around the house, at work, with my daughter...bla bla bla...all day long and then I'd go to bed exhausted and then, oh god! now he wants sex too! I would have needed a lot of foreplay to get interested or maybe just "let's play scrabble" to peak my interest. "Let's play scrabble" would have told me that he wanted to connect with me and didn't just want my body, that he was willing to give up something he wanted so badly in order to simply connect with me.

There were times with him when I would just have sex cause it seemed like my duty (we were married after all), and I would be there physically, but my mind was everywhere except in the moment. Sometimes it would feel like hours would go by where I'm planning my next day or resolving some issue at work and then I'd suddenly go "oh, right, I'm having sex...I should pay attention". It wasn't until after a fair bit of oral sex from him that I'd start to actually get aroused and then it was easier to stay present..ish, cause really at that point I was focused on the orgasm so I could get this over with.

I cringe just remembering those days. Uhg.

Btw, he thought I had some problem with my libido, that it just wasn't as high as his and actually told our friends that I had a problem. My friends were shocked to see how friggin' horny I was after we split up!

I can see you and Sparkles have a WAY better relationship than my ex and I, but I hope there's something you can take from me agonizingly recounting that experience!

Another thing, what got me to pick up Cupid and really read it and to read everything I could on this site is that the man I wanted so badly was resisting. Q basically said, 'well, if you want sex with me, you'd probably have to do x y and z, otherwise, I'm pretty happy with no sex". F*&% did that get me going!!!! He also handed me some tantra books and said 'take it, I don't want these anymore'. It seems that he was always the one reading and guiding and teaching in his past relationship(s) and his partner wasn't reciprocating and so he didn't want that role anymore. (don't worry, he hadn't discovered Karezza that I know of, if he had, he'd probably still be with his last big love and I wouldn't be here on this site now). Now I think if I were in a relationship with someone, I could be the one teaching Karezza to my partner and will be motivated to read and experiment more and more.

Teasing apart wants and needs

Teasing apart wants and needs seems to be part of this process. Someone who needs something can bee received as a burden and shut others down. Someone who wants something and yet remains open to not getting it can open the door for others to fulfill that want. Wants morphed to needs can be at the level of basic human needs such as food or love rather than steak or person X. Another person will almost always have more resistance to a more specific need. A want, however, can be expressed as specifically as one desires.

This mutual thawing out seems to revert the interaction dialogue toward the expression of clearer wants and purer (not in a judgmental sense) needs to enable mutual, non-burdened fulfillment.

power games

You may not understand what I mean by "power game" or I'm not using the right wording. Power games sounds negative and thants not waht I mean. Its really about balance and the certain kinds of push and pull we do in response to a polarity in our partner. Like how your extra enthusiasm matches her under enthusiasm. I'm with Rachael, in that your wife, in my opinion has all the sexual passion you could ever want, its just a matter of you giving her space as well as her own timing. A woman's heart and soul just cant be rushed. Just keep steady being non-orgasmic and it will all unfold.

thank you I think you are right

@Darryl: I think it will unfold. I really do. We have a wonderful relationship. The clarification of what you mean is very helpful. You've said this before and I think I really get it now. I think there is a progression here, from my extreme pressure and neediness to how we are now having sex about every day and how now that I am not anxious about that, I feel more able to give her that space.

@Zia, thank you very much. Your experience is wonderfully helpful. So incredibly valuable actually. I think to answer your question, Sparkles was satisfied with our sex life because she didn't expect much and wasn't disappointed. As we got on in our marriage, we started to have sex both days on weekends and no other time in general. She would have an orgasm maybe 1/3 of the time, more or less, and seemed happy enough.

I was the one that wasn't happy. I continually tried to bring in new stuff to our sex life in a mistaken notion that I needed more novelty. And I was feeling very under nourished sexually and was ready to push the issue. Then I discovered Dr. Bass's book and Karezza and this site.

I'm often the instigator in our relationship of new ideas and new ways of living and it's been quite valuable, and she thinks so too.

She was very unhappy with this shift from me. At first. Now I think she's quite delighted. I am more solicitous, more caring, more loving, more eager to please. I can't help it, that's how I feel. She says this. And she is in a very good mood now most of the time and I think this is a big reason.

I hope that answers.