She prefers just cuddling - no libido

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Really don't mean to go in circles here.

Sparkles said she really hasn't felt any libido for a number of years.

We can rule out birth control meds (she was not on them since we've been together), medication of any kind (she doesn't take anything), depression (she isn't depressed), exercise (she exercises every day for an hour), health problems (very healthy, thank goodness), ummm....what else? Stress and anxiety? Nope.

Maybe she isn't really that attracted to me, but I don't think that's it either. We have a very physically loving relationship. She says she enjoys it when I'm inside her to the extent of the closeness but doesn't otherwise feel much of anything and doesn't have desire. It's like, as I suspected, she does it to make me happy. She would prefer just cuddling really.

She *does* lubricate. So it isn't a bodily thing. She doesn't lubricate quickly or almost instantly like she used to before menopause, but she does lubricate after my penis is inside.

She does have orgasms too.

I asked her why she doesn't want to have orgasms now that I'm not having them and she says she is self concious somehow. So I said, if you aren't going to have them, why not read and learn? It's so worth it to have the kind of sensations and feelings I am having.

She still hasn't looked at the Richardson video or a book or anything.

I think she *must* have a sex drive. But it's still locked away. To me, a great clue (as I told her) is how she feels when I touch her breasts. She is very defensive about my touching them. And she says she feels sort of a nauseous feeling when I do. That is a big clue to me.

And she does lubricate. There is physically some arousal if not mentally.

I think without clitoral stimulation, she feels nothing because her sex drive is locked down and the connection with her breasts is there but her mind needs to rewire itself. That's my feeling from reading the Richardson books. She doesn't really have a strong desire to do anything about this. That is my thing, not hers.

I am sorry to go in circles here, I don't mean to...it reflects the circles I feel I am going in right now. And I realize we are post-O here with her (I haven't had an orgasm in over 2 months now).

This is really a journey about the only person that can do anything about this, which is me. I must come to terms with the fact that my partner may not have any real sexual desire and that is okay with her. But it really isn't okay with me. I feel angry right now. It may be because I am physically not feeling great for other reasons. My business situation is improving and I feel a *lot* better about that. I will go downstairs again and pound things and get rid of some of these feelings.

It is still quite possible (probable?) that this all just takes time to rewire and sort out. That she is going through a sort of reboot. But the fact that she says she hasn't felt *any* sex drive for a number of years disturbs me.

Talk soon!

 

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Well youre not gonna get

Well youre not gonna get women wet in their pants by being a "nice guy". Sounds like you listen to much of her and her feelings. Just take her to the bed and fuck her. Women love that type of stuff. Take the lead. I have a book which is great on this also

Hei Emerson,

Hei Emerson,

I've been skulking recently and although I've read most of your posts I have been keeping quiet. This last post rung some bells for me though. I too have said that I don't really have much of a sex drive, and that I prefer cuddling, despite the fact that I get physically aroused and also mentally aroused. For me it was part of a defense system. There are all sorts of complications with the story, but the basics you need to know right now are that I was in a long distance relationship, in which we were experimenting with Karezza, and that I got ill with chonic fatigue syndrome.

He always had a higher libido than I did, I think, even from the start. We only saw each other maybe every couple of months, and to begin with we both wanted to get as much sex into our visits as possible. After a while though I began to feel pressured by it. I didn't want as much sex as he did, but I found it hard to refuse as we had so little time together (you could substitute and number of reasons why women find it hard to say no to sex here - because they are married, because they are financially dependant, because he'll look elsewhere if you say no...). I think that I started to say that I prefered just cuddling about then. It was the begining of what Darryl calls feminine lock-down. I don't think that it made any difference that it was karezza sex, letting him in when I didn't want to wasn't good for me.

After I got sick the lock-down proccess sped up considerably, as the pressure to have sex (because I felt I wasn't any good as a partner in any other way) grew, and my desire for it (because I was so exhausted and found it so draining) diminished. By the time we broke up I was in complete lock-down. Even when he got me to agree to sex, and turned me on mentally, I couldn't have sex because my body shut down and made sex excruciatingly painfull.

More recently I had a fling with a friend with benefits. I told him to begin with that I prefered just cuddling and that I wasn't bothered about sex. We did have sex a few times, before he found a real girlfriend, and to my great surprise I didn't find it painful. The main difference was that with this guy sex was always on my terms, if and when I wanted it and I didn't feel the same obligations to him, because he wasn't my boyfriend.

Obviously a different man isn't the solution for your wife, but I do wonder if your asking for sex every day and pushing her to read about this wonderful new way of making love is driving her deeper into herself, and actually causing the lockdown.

I think that you are probably also right about her having to rewire, but pressuring her into having the kind of sex that you want every day isn't neccesarily going to do that. If she is saying that she prefers cuddling, then could you ask her to do the exchanges every day instead of having sex with you? That would probably help her to rewire, and give her the space to realise that she does actually enjoy sex after all.

Anyway, these are just thoughts, and I'm not an expert. I hope that things go well though.

Hugs, Katten

you might be onto something

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, Katten. Your point is that even this type of sex, Karezza, when she isn't really into it, can result in feminine lockdown, hit home with me.

Today when we woke up, I said to her that I wasn't going to have intercourse. And she proceeded to show me a good time cuddling and getting me hot. I think she was really into it. And it was because I had said that. Reality is that this gets me very turned on but the fact that I had made an agreement initially I think made her less inhibited. I think she was a bit turned on also.

Interesting experiment. I think I will continue with this and see where it goes. Without intercourse for awhile.

I love reading your posts

I love reading your posts Emerson. You have some amazing insights and advice for us young pups. So please don't take it the wrong way when I say that in a way I agree with borsh. It sounds like you are being pushy in a nice, "it's for your own good" sort of way.

Sometimes the more you try the more distant people become. You are right about it being your journey, so why not let her come to you for a bit? It sounds like she might be going nuts with the intense analysis of her feelings.

Have you invited her to post something here?

great point

@borshajen thanks for the replies. I see your point. The issue isn't so much having intercourse with her, which she is okay with me doing, and we do a lot, but having her feel it and enjoy it.

@mwa, yeah, great point. I think this is exactly what I don't want to hear, and is therefore the most correct. It rings true to me, and is really what Katten has said too. So I think that becomes the order of the day. No intercourse for awhile and I'm going to really let her come to me. As you say, it is probably making her a bit nuts, you're right about that. No more talking about it either.

Thank you both.

Defensiveness

For my entire adulthood (until the last few years), I was also very defensive of my breasts. Looking back, I know that I was protecting my heart by protecting my breasts. Lots of old wounds there that are now being healed. You have no idea how much the body shields you from things that have happened in your past until you start to feel the layers being peeled away.

Just keep being loving and conscious and aware of how she might have old wounds, too. Your anger is not going to help welcome her in to you. You really need to keep yourself focused on positive, loving, compassionate thoughts toward her.

I think all women have the potential for a tremendous "libido" (I don't really like to call it that because it's not about always wanting sex, it's about always wanting to feel a loving connection with your partner and *understanding* how important it is for your health and well-being). You have been blessed in many ways as many couples who have been together as long as you two are not making love at all. Please remember that! You have knowledge right now that she doesn't have~~that is what makes it so hard on you (you've opened Pandora's box, lol). Please be patient, Emerson. I can feel your restless energy coming through my computer screen, ha! Let it out in some other way so she doesn't feel pressured by you.

thank you thank you

right on as always, Rachel. You have no idea how helpful you are and how supportive these remarks are. I will be patient indeed. I am taking my anger out on weights and things. I am also determined not to have intercourse for awhile and let her get some more space and feel less of my wants and more of her own. I think I am so blessed it is not to be believed. And the path I am on is such a great one, what is another week or a month?

Please....

do not try to sort out or analyze your love life while your mate is post-O. You are wasting your time and angsting for no reason. Wait, and the energy will shift.

So glad to hear about your business!

You're both still rebooting

Emerson, you're just 90 days post porn coupled masterbation, and your brain is still rebooting, and is causing you some ripples, too. (I saw your post about almost relapsing to porn.)  So she's post-O, and you're still under some amount of brain pathway remodeling.    It's not you, and it's not her.  It's the brain-chemistry ups and downs that do this to us.  We have to see into ourselves for the answers. 

I recently got very upset over something trivial.  And it was *nothing* my partner had done or said, or anything, but the anger was at myself for not noticing something I should have, but I outwardly directed my anger at him.  Part of it was triggered by low-blood sugar for me, and my experience of my prolonged anger was of two minds.  One part of me was 'watching' me be angry and upset, and saying "wow, isn't that something, you've got nothing to be upset about at all, and here you are, yelling and throwing at the person you love the most."   That thought alone was enough to trigger my calming down. 

I took at least a year to reboot my sexuality to the point where I didn't take the frequency of intercourse personally.  Somewhere along the way, my love for my partner became an integral part of my heart, and sex is just icing.  The love's the thing.

Quizure

 

priceless experiences

@Marnia, I know, you are right too. It is very clear to me that she is heavily influenced by the passion cycle. It is oh so hard to just suspend any meaningful dialog or conclusions. I think I will stick to the "no intercourse for now" though (at least for a day or two LOL, no until I can tell she really wants to)

@Quizure, so much appreciated, this information is incredibly helpful. I think there are definitely rebooting issues going on here. I'm kinda surprised how smooth it's been for me but it isn't entirely smooth. I think my anger this past 24 hours is related to rebooting, what else can it be? It took a year at least, wow. But that doesn't surprise me, it's very interesting to absorb all this though.

 

 

 

In our experience,

no matter who has the orgasm, both partners are somewhat affected. See what you notice. One guy explained it as "popping a balloon you have been blowing up together." There's probably more going on at an energy level than science can tell us about yet.

this is really true

I felt weird after her O and on and off still do.

And I'm kind of in the weirdest state right now as I've been since we started this.

I don't have those wonderful feelings towards her right now. And I'm unaccountably angry. And I feel a strong urge to masturbate. Very strong horny feelings.

It really hit home to me that I'm indeed rebooting. In a way, maybe I've been in a sort of pleasant half flatline over the past few months. Maybe that's changing. Dunno.

I agree, it's the lock-down

I agree, it's the lock-down thing going on...it all comes back to shrugging your shoulders and asking to play scrabble. And your advice to me to play hard to get might work for you to.

BTW, I just finally took that advice and while it hasn't had any spectacular results [yet, sigh], he did respond and better than that, I feel better. I think that has something to do with breaking the pattern where I'm always the one pushing and feeling shitty for not getting the response I want, and him probably feeling guilty for not giving me the response I want. When I set up the no boundaries I can't get that rejection and I feel less needy. He's reached out now and now he can relax (or wait), guilt free. Oh, the games we play.

I wonder what games our communal ancestors played?

well, you served that one right back to me over the net

and it's a perfect play. Voila! Exactmente! It is *exactly* what you and everyone else has been telling me in different ways the last few months. Darryl has said "move over and she'll move," and it's true. And I'm glad you're trying that too because after all, it protects your all important ego, doesn't it? And it's better for your guy there.

We men want to pursue, we want to chase, that's what we live for. We men want to win, and we want it to be a challenge. My direct route with my wife is too intense, too pressurey for her. So I am going to be a bit hard to get now. And wait a few weeks on that level. (My resolve will crumble should she *really* want me inside her, but I can tell the difference.)

I think that's maybe why my brain is sort of detached today. Actually a lot of the most melty and wonderful feelings for her are gone for some reason today. She did treat me to the most delightful massage thingy today (no orgasm of course and very little genital involvement but enough) and it was after I said "no intercourse." I think she was attracted to me, and still is, because I am in charge kind of a guy, but that translates into "controlling" and that isn't attractive, so I have to step back now.

Great advice, you guys rock so much, you have NO idea!

Great, stay with that 2 week

Great, stay with that 2 week commitment...oh, the pressure you'll feel. So I kept holding off for the rest of the day and Q just reached out to me again in soft affectionate way he hasn't in months. I even found some space to start talking, for the first time, about some of the ideas in Cupid. I got as far as explaining the passion cycle, to which his response was something like 'oh, but it's all helped if a woman just gives a man a blow job everyday'. Ok, so that was a bit arousing, but I'm not letting that get me off track!

nice!

Great you got a positive response from your guy there. He's already negotiating, sounds like wink

I think guys need time with this idea. We know that we get this feeling of wanting to separate, often, after orgasm, but the rest of it including the subsequent days take some noticing. Non-orgasmic for men is pretty hard to sell at first.

thoughts from a 27/m/single

@Emerson, I've read a number of your posts from the shadows and I think it might be a decent idea for you to take a look at some of the pickup artist literature. Try 'The Game' by Neil Strauss and Paul Janka's stuff. You could also check out a guy named Johnny Seporno. They're definitely wanting something different than karezza and monogamy but I think they have a lot of solid insight about the games men and women play. It's something I've thought a lot about over the past year or more. To an extent, I agree with @Borshajen- it's not a good idea to listen to what girls say they want if you want to get girls (that includes a wife). I'm sure you've heard the saying "girls like assholes". I think that's entirely true. In fact, I've had girls tell me I'm an asshole, then have sex with me the same night (doesn't give much incentive to be "nice", huh?).

But it's not really "assholes" that women want. They want what they perceive to be a strong mate. Put simply, women want a MAN. Yes, our conceptions of gender and what it means to be a "man" are somewhat arbitrary and socially defined, but you live (I assume) in the context in which those definitions are accepted and are, therefore, both influenced by them and likely married to a woman who's influenced by them. So, like it or not, you're probably being compared to some amorphous ideal that's a combination or biology, socialization, and her particular set of values and experiences. The main rule I've been able to distill from all my interactions with women to this point is that "women want a man who's attracted to them enough to pursue them, but strong enough to not need them." Think about that. No one wants what they can have. Any Buddhist will tell you that the the mind never wants "what is"- the whole is grass is greener idea. It's because we're all mind-dominated (unless you're enlightened). So, as soon as a potential mate knows they have you, they don't want you anymore! So, I would suggest maybe figuring out a way to create a space in which connection is possible, but both of you retain ownership of yourselves.

This might sound confusing, and I have never been married, but I'll give you a quick example from my own experience. I've kind of been into the whole multiple casual relationships thing (and will be again now that my reboot is done). When I've had the most success taking a female from being a complete stranger to a sexual partner in a relatively short time, it's when I've been the most direct about what I want and open to any result. Basically, the conversation would progress to the point where I would directly ask them if they wanted to have sex and to give them space both to consider the thought with no fear of judgment from me and the ability to say no.

So something like this:
me: "so listen, do you want to go have sex? Smile
girl: omg blah blah blah (i really don't mean that to be condescending, they're just usually slightly shocked at being asked outright)
me: well look, i'm not gonna try to make you do anything you don't want to do. i'm just super attracted to you and i'm really digging everything that's going on here and i think it would be super fun. at least for me Smile
girl: *looks at me consideringly*
me: and if you don't want to, that's completely cool. but if you do awesome, i'll love you either way. (works better with a sarcastic grin)
girl: *makes the choice*

Doing it this way, I cut through the bullshit, let the girl be comfortable in the fact that I find her attractive, and talk in a pretty casual manner to let her know that I won't be secretly thinking she's a slut if she chooses to have sex with me. Sometimes I even have to lay out why I don't think that (which is actually genuine on my part). But I allow her to save face whether she says yes or no and I represent myself as strong by clearly detaching myself from the outcome (which also allows me to save face). That's actually the tough part- getting the mindset to where you don't actually mind being told no. And you can't fake it. The key, I think, is that it's really important to realize that the woman ALWAYS chooses to have sex with you. It's never the other way around. By approaching her and initiating contact, I've pretty much already said 'yes' to her (unless she just completely sucks). So, then it's just a matter of cutting all the socialization and mental games and letting her honestly and freely consider whether she wants to have sex with me. And the less you really want to have sex with her, like in a needy way, the more likely she is to say yes.

This post has gotten long and I don't mean it to be self-aggrandizing. I just think you might get some positive results if you try to "pick up" your wife. Honestly, I think marriages stagnate because people stop bringing this level of attention and effort to them (example- my parents). It takes a lot to get yourself pumped up enough and get to the place where you're detached from the results enough in order to do shit like I described above. And the lack of effort I see in most marriages I've ever witnessed has really turned me off on the idea of marriage. Particularly with the Coolidge effect, the fate of most marriages seems to be awful. It seems like your only choices are 1) karezza, 2) open relationships with other sexual partners, or 3) repressing your sexuality. However, based on what I've read from you, especially this past week, it seems like karezza in of itself might not be enough- you need to combine karezza with the effort, attention, and tactics that are the basis of pick-up. The karezza is just there to keep you from getting neurochemically bored of the other person and to keep driving you to continuously picking her up.

Relationships are always more exciting at the beginning (perhaps less rewarding in a deep sense, but definitely more exciting). So maybe try to set the conditions so that it's more like the beginning of one. You've definitely got your work cut out for you. And you might feel that you need to be met halfway, but I would disagree with that. I used to want girls to meet me halfway and would get upset when they didn't. Then I realized that mentality is not very manly. As a rational male, I think in terms of tit for tat and quid pro quo. But I don't believe women think like that- they access the world much more through their feelings. And what would give them the best feelings? Having a guy so enamored with them that he can't help but take them (in a safe, consenting way of course). Women want to be taken (one might suggest 'dominated'), and it's the man's job to take them. So, I don't think it's right to expect to be met halfway. You gotta be the man and take her. And, while I believe that karezza is probably the answer to a lot of long-term relationship issues, I still think that sometimes girls just want to be fucked. And if you don't fuck them right, they start respecting you less. I say that respectfully. But I could definitely see that being true at the beginning of the karezza thing. But the rub is that you need to set the conditions to where your wife wants to be taken. That might sound manipulative- and under a strict definition of the word, it probably is :) - but I don't see a way around it. It's just how humans are. You gotta be man enough to accept it and do what's necessary. So let the games begin.

See why I prefer the casual thing? haha

Good luck, man.

recovering

your post is thought provoking and I want to answer it in some detail.

I have read The Game and I've read a lot of pickup material and enjoyed it.

Let me tell you how I got here.

1. I decided to up my game, married or not. I began to dress better and basically be more attractive.

2. I also made it clear that I wasn't going to be happy with having sex twice a week (which is actually more often than people I know who have been married as long as we have.)

3. She got unhappy with that, but I said to myself, so what. She'll deal. I'm not living the rest of my life this way.

4. That led me to discover I had a problem with porn.

5. I stopped masturbation and porn.

6. I discovered this site and Karezza.

7. We started having sex just about every day. I assure you, I take masculine leadership in our relationship all the time. I am very assertive and I'm not beta in the least. She digs on my alpha-ness and always has.

8. Things have become extremely sweet between us.

9. Now, this last few days, and for this whole month, I am taking an entirely different position. I am letting her pick me up. I am letting her aggress. I am not making moves. I am seeing what she wants to do with her space. And doing this for awhile, not just a few days.

Interestingly, she did make a move on me yesterday and we had great sex.

I am sure that the casual thing is great but there is nothing that is as sweet or wonderful as Karezza when you have really bonded with the one you love. It is far better than honeymoon type sex, when you first meet someone. This is what I rate as the biggest discovery of my life -- that you can have an even better, more pleasurable and more exciting time with your partner but not just at the beginning of your relationship but for the rest of your life.

 

 

 

Yeah, I think karezza might

Yeah, I think karezza might be the only way to have a long term monogamous relationship without becoming sexless or cheating. That Coolidge Effect is real. Without it, I don't see how people could possibly keep putting the energy or attention into a relationship. Which is why I guess there are so many unhappy marriages. I'm not currently at a place where I'm interested in trying out karezza just yet. But I imagine I will once I take care of other things in life and get more interested in settling down. Until then, I'm probably just not willing to give that amount of effort and attention to a romantic relationship.

It's good that you intentionally upped your game. It's amazing how being intentional brings to light hidden problems- the same thing sort of led me to realize that porn had been really negatively affecting me. It's also interesting that you get a positive response when you sort of take away attention (that definitely accords with my experience and is along the lines of what Neil Strauss says about how to close). I think it would be ideal if there were just no striving and everyone could just be, though I guess then we'd all be enlightened. As long as we're identified with form, there's always some sort of exchange going on- sex for attention, attention for attention, whatever. Basically 'need for need'. To that extent, I feel like we always have to play some sort of game to get what we want and, in your case with the marriage, make sure the other person is also getting what they want in the long run too.

i think I had to go through this process

I had to kind of force things for a bit to get here. The seduction guys call this push-pull. Now we're done pushing. Time to have her push for a bit. But I couldn't have gotten here without the bonding and without initiating things the way I did.

I was by the way totally uninterested in Karezza even 4 months ago. What, me, no orgasm? You've got to be kidding.

Now I have no interest in orgasms. My wife asked me last night (yet again) "are you really not going to have an orgasm?". Yep.

 

Ok, sorry guys, but this shit

Ok, sorry guys, but this shit is fucking me up. What's an alpha female to do, huh? Just sit and passively pretend to be hard to get and be patient? I can completely relate to what you're saying, but when I first read what you write, I think, oh, I can do that and then I give my head a shake and remember I'm a woman and am 'supposed' to be on the other end of that game.

My 'alpha-ness' worked great with my last female lover and my more 'feminine' male lovers/partners, but I've been kinda finding the feminine in me (sexually I understand what that means now, and maybe I'm getting it more on the appearance end, but I don't get where I fit in 'the game' and the engine grease under my finger nails probably doesn't fit either.)/. The result seems to be that I'm craving what I perceive as a more masculine man than I have in the past - at least, a man who's more focused, takes control sexually, show's emotion and vulnerability, but has a different kind of strength of character than men I've been with before, someone I would want to go to for advice, who can make decisions...(all qualities my ex husband didn't have...at all!).

But I don't think I'm equipped to play that game. Somehow I missed the lessons back in my teens and 20's. I was in a different world. I took the lead with at least half my lovers and the others we had sex more spontaneously and mutually. But then I read some of these posts and it seems like that's not going to work well for me and so far it's not. And in all my running of scenarios in my head for what action I might take to attract the guy I want involve either divulging to him how deeply I appreciate him, asking him to do the exchanges with me (thanks to Daryll's advice, the 'speech' I've written 10 times over in my journal has gotten pretty interesting, but hasn't been spoken out loud yet) or something like asking if I can give him a blow job (oh, I'm now a week post O and this particular craving is through the roof). None of my mind's scenarios involve 'playing hard to get' (I've tried emerson, really I have).

nothing wrong with taking the lead

I have three comments to what you have written, Zia.

1. You mean women LIKE giving guys blow jobs?

2. My wife took the lead in meeting me. I was shy (too into porn I suppose to be really outgoing socially with women although that's my perspective now, wasn't at the time) and she took the lead in talking to me. That is how one thing led to another.

I am quite alpha as I said. And people ask me for advice all the time. In fact I'm kind of a leader in most areas of my life (as you have gathered from my posts, I'm quite the one to take leadership and put on pressure, maybe too much pressure, to get what I want). But my partner had to get things going or we wouldn't be going today.

3. Playing hard to get is hard to do...

I have found it VERY hard to play this game today, the game of "let her have her way completely, just sit back and don't initiate anything". I can imagine it's 100 times as difficult to play hard to get in the early stages of interest in a potential partner.

The seduction literature for guys talks about push-pull and it's really valuable in every area of every type of relationship. You push a bit, then you stop pushing and the other person has to push and now you PULL. It's also known as "the takeaway" in selling, or the "reverse sale" as in "tell me why you are good enough for me to fuck you" to put it into crude language. 

In my relationship right now, I'm through pushing for a bit, and now it's time for her to push.

My wife initiated our conversation and pushed things gently along making me think it was my idea...but then later on I became more of the pusher and the initiator.

I think that's what makes a magic relationship. It isn't all hard to get at all times, but it is some times.

hi zia

I would say most of the seduction stuff grows out of the fact that most women aren't aggressors. For some reason, women seem socialized to think that they're not supposed to approach men. There have been plenty of times a girl has made eye contact with me multiple across a room or something and I know that she wants to be approached, but for some reason feels like she can't approach me. I used to not understand and nothing would happen, but now I approach whenever I lock eyes with someone for longer than just a passing glance.

I wouldn't say you need to play hard to get exactly. Here's what I would suggest to a woman who wants to attract men.

1) Put yourself in a position to be approached. If you're sitting at a table with 4 of your friends, that's not really a very good position for a guy to approach because then he has to yuck it up with the whole table, gain approval of your friends, then isolate you and go for what he really wants. That's A LOT of work, trust me. Men are predators- what do predators do when stalking a herd (yes, women are gazelles)? Isolate, then go for the kill. Put yourself in a position to be isolated.

2) Make him earn it. This is not exactly playing hard to get. Remember, it's always the woman who chooses to have sex with the man. If it were up to the man, all guys would get laid a lot more. It kind of makes sense biologically. Males want to have sex with everything, but the female "lack of sex drive" is there to keep the males in check and determine which genes get passed on (how's that for pop evolutionary biology?). So, since you're the one who's choosing, why choose something you don't really want? Test him, bust his balls a little. If you want a really masculine guy, that's how you find one. The masculine ones don't mind it or will take it as a challenge and push through. The weaker ones will skulk away (I've been both guys at different points in life). In general, I've found that women are looking to disqualify men (and that men are looking for any reason to qualify a woman haha). I think women know within the first 10-30 seconds whether they'll have sex with a guy, then spend the rest of the time during the subsequent interaction(s) looking for reasons to not have sex with him (soooooo annoying from my perspective). Pickup stuff is largely designed to deal with this fact.

3) Be really honest with yourself about why you want to approach guys. I've definitely had a number of girls approach me/be the aggressor. They tend to fall in one of two camps. One type is very confident in themselves and can put themselves out there without being afraid of rejection (kind of like the mindset I was talking about in a previous post), but will make you work for it once you start showing interest. Those are the best type of girls in my opinion. The other type lacks self-confidence but puts themselves out there, ultimately in a sort of sloppy way, out of inadequacy or some sort of need for attention/affection/etc. Those type of girls definitely get a lot of sex, because guys don't really care for a few sessions, but usually don't get what they want in the long run because they're not conscious enough to know what they actually want and not strong enough to go get it. I have no idea what type of person you are, just make sure you're always questioning your motives and judging yourself by output. Basically, what are you saying that you want, what are you actually getting, and why is there a disparity (if there is one)?

4) Learn your game. Guy's have to do it too. I don't know what the "exchanges" that you're talking about are, but once you've decided what you want, you need to come up with a plan and tactics on how to get it. Are you going to be the girl who always waits for a guy to approach? Or are you going to initiate the push-pull and then make the guy come to you? Those approaches take different personalities and skill sets. And you might have to work to gain those skill sets. That's what guys have to do when they get into pickup. The reason they feel nervous approaching a girl cold is they're never done it. Once they do it 100 times, they're a lot less nervous. They've heard pretty much all the responses they would ever get, they're figured out how to respond and control the interaction to get what they want (say, a phone number). That's a skill. So figure out what skills you have, what you want to do, and what skills you need to develop.

5) Volume. It's the same for guys. If a guy bitches that he's not getting laid, I always ask how many girls he's approached. All the pickup guys who have high volume approach lots of girls. I read one guy who's supposedly slept with 300 women who claims that if he asks 10 girls for their phone number, he'll sleep with 1 out of those 10. So, that's like a 10% conversion rate. So, if a guy wants to sleep with 10 girls, he needs to proposition 100. There's a lot more room for making mistakes (like saying something stupid) when you're talking about that type of volume. In your case, I don't know exactly what you want (I assume it's not sex with hundreds of guys) but you'd probably be a lot more likely to get it if you put yourself in contact with a higher volume of guys. Yes, it takes time, costs money, and is mentally and emotionally draining. But nothing worth having is easy to get, right? You gotta find your margin and balance out all your priorities. The volume/efficiency thing is the biggest reason I think online dating sites are so popular.

Just my thoughts. Also, I'll echo @Emerson- cheers on the blowjob craving lol :)

emerson: 'like' doesn't not

emerson: 'like' doesn't not begin to describe how I feel about giving my lover blow jobs. But then again, I'm not talking about intense sucking down the throat porn type blow jobs that leave my jaw aching, I'm talking about fully appreciating every sensation with my tongue and lips on every part of my partners penis and testicles and abdomen -that I could do endlessly I think.

And yes, I agree that push-pull is a big part of relationships of all kinds. I was giving my daughter advice about this today when she was playing with a group of other girls. 2 of the girls wanted to go off and play by themselves, so the other girls were hurt and demanded that they play with them, which pushed them away further. So I suggested to my daughter that if her and the friend that were 'left behind' just shrugged their shoulders and had fun by themselves that the other two would be drawn back to playing with them in no time.

recovering: Oh! so that's the game. I remember the casual sex game. No, I don't really have a problem with getting laid. I know how I could get laid tonight if I wanted to...and wasn't home single parenting:)

Thanks for all the thought you put into this though. I think maybe my post O mind was getting way off track. Really, the anxiety in my last post just revolves around my particular longing for one particular person with whom I was involved sexually and had a very complicated dynamic. When I actually think about it, I've never had a problem getting into passionate relationships and especially casual sex when I was in that head space. If I can be categorized, I usually fit into the confident and know what I want category. But I keep reading about this 'game' and it's never been part of my experience, so it was starting to make me think I need to play it (to 'get' that one particular person), but it seems from what you're saying is it's a pick up game and not really about finding a lifelong mate to practice karezza with. That's where I'm at.

Today I felt way more optimistic again about the approach that's always worked well for me: meet lots of people, have intense conversations cause that's what I love, maybe become friends and let it unfold in whatever way it does. And now these days I'm adding patience, detachment, presence and rational selection to that mix.

It's not really about pickup.

It's not really about pickup. Maybe it was. It's evolved into social dynamics and men's movement. The idea is men improve and use the tools to be selective about partners. This is better for women too. The deeper aspects are generally compatible with the ideas here. I've never read The Game and have little interest. I've heard Mystery ends up alone at the end. Pickup isn't relationship focused for a lot of guys in the beginning. To each his own. Most evolve toward relationships.