2 kinds of sex

Submitted by vacama on
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I'd like to apologize for the break between posts; I've just started a new job and I've been terribly busy with that. I am able to take a moment and write 1 of 2 blog posts that I envisioned when I first started this Sex for Christians ministry blog. I believe the two posts I want to write work hand in hand so I hope to post that entry soon.

I was going to title the previous blog "2 kinds of sex" but I got so caught up with my history that I didn't feel it was right to tack this topic onto the end of a post, and that it would be more appropriate to give it its own entry.

Perhaps it came from going through the various resources on this site, but I came to the conclusion that there really are two kinds of sex. And it's easy to say "yeah, the ones with orgasm and the ones without" but I think there are many, many implications that stem from that distinction. One could group "Sex A-style" together and "Sex style-1" together (please note that I used equivalent categorizations, not labeling the groups A and B or 1 and 2, as I believe there is nothing inherently wrong with either "type" of sex; they each serve a purpose in the great big picture of a human's life).

Let's take a look at A-style and say that it's all the sex affiliated with the rush of sex. And I don't even mean the orgasm's rush. When a person first becomes sexually active, there is a great deal of anticipation, excitement, and exploration. The actual act or milestone often overshadows who you are entering a physical relationship with. Looking back, I shudder to think if I married the first girl I ever kissed or felt up or was naked with (I did, however, marry the woman to whom I gave my virginity, and for that I am very grateful!). This kind of sex also includes things that couples are often encouraged to do to "spice up" their marriage. Yes, feelings of excitement and the thrill of the new will be exhilarating, but this will clearly be short-lived. This could be anything from couples watching porn together, to bringing in sex-toys, to engaging in threesomes or swinging or what have you. I would imagine that the chronology of such spice-up experiments are close to what I listed, because what titillated before wasn't enough later on, and deeper titillation and weirder things and more disturbing fantasies take over the mind. I would say that an addiction to this sexual thrill is what causes a lot of pain, let alone drives several serial killers that I've heard of! But I digress...

There's another facet to A-style sex, and that is masturbation. And clearly, there is no "loving atmosphere" in a "self-love" session. Again, not that there is anything wrong with masturbation (some Christians believe that it is wrong, but my opinion is that it is not mentioned in the Bible so it is fine... with limitations, to be noted later); I believe masturbation has its purpose.

But here is an interesting point of view that I discovered that I have. That is, a sexual encounter between husband and wife, whose sole purpose to get each other off because it's been awhile or whatever, is effectively masturbation by vagina (MBV?).

Now, as to the other kind of sex, I would say that 1-style Sex is, of course, lovemaking. It's that unspeakably beautiful moment when two souls intertwine in step with the bodies they inhabit, that act of solitude, quiet, peace, where no one else can invade, where you and your spouse transcend this physical plane into a place that belongs only to you.

I believe there really are two kinds of sex: the kind that gets you off, the-quicker-the-better kind; and the kind that is so much more vastly satisfying, where not only your body is filled with pleasure, but your soul as well. I can't stress enough how deep, how... magical that moment is. And I find that the most beautiful thing about it is I get that satisfaction from the tenderest kisses, the closest embraces, the most exquisite spooning, that contact brimming with lovingkindness. I don't even necessarily "need" to engage in intercourse, although that is another facet of making love. It is a sin, yes, it is downright wasteful and foolish to forgo that spectacular union over one that simply makes you cum for 3 to 6 seconds. It's regrettable the same way that it's regrettable when we choose not to pray: you lose time with your Heavenly Father, you don't have a chance to speak to Him, to let your burdens upon Him, why skip that chance when you are fully entitled, as one redeemed by the blood of Christ.

"O what peace we often forfeit,
O what needless pain we bear,
all because we do not carry
everything to God in prayer." - "What a Friend we have in Jesus"

As an epilogue, let me say that this, I believe, is the reason why waiting for marriage is truly the right way to go. Imagine, your spouse with whom you are now, being the only person you ever kissed, ever held, ever made love to, what a deeply beautiful, intimate relationship. When two are first married, abstaining from sex beforehand, they have that first kiss, that first time in bed, combine all that with the energy from a young married couple, and yeah, it's the perfect environment to make babies!! But after you're done making the babies, why reach for the orgasm? I say, if it happens, it happens, but you're missing the point. Focus on your partner and how you and him/her interact when your bodies and souls are embraced. It's no wonder that the Courtship movement has become so popular and successful among Christian communities. I'm not from that background, but they would do well if they taught their young people to focus on their new spouses, not on what they were about to do, not what they were about to feel (as in orgasm), just go with the beautiful flow.



How does this fit into categories?

I have a different situation and perspective where Marnia's categorization works but vacma's doesn't work

I try to talk about what I want, but "my way" is not "hot" for him, and he's totally programmed to go for "hot." Where I want to go is not on his map.

So maybe you could say he's goal-oriented with the goal of hot sex w/o orgasm. Which is a goal that by nature leads straight to him feeling like a failure at least some of the time. Which is kind of funny and ironic since so many guys would consider it a huge success to be able to last a couple of hours.

Vacma: How does the landscape look if you think of the 2 kinds as fleshly and spiritual? (Not spiritual in the sense that Christians often use it, as in "good, respectable, and Christianlike" but as in, pertaining to the spirit, to a union of two human spirits, perhaps mediated by the Spirit of God.)

Also, vacma, to give my unasked for 2 cents as a Christian interested in karezza, I'm respectfully not very interested in a breakdown of what's sin/not sin. Also, frankly, I'm disgusted and offended that you think what's ok and not ok might change after babies. Really? You think God would say, "I understand that your wife's sexual market value has gone down due to aging and babies. Henceforth, thou shalt be allowed to dally with toys and lingerie."?

Sorry, you struck a nerve with me there. As Marnia has written, and given in her link, lingerie etc. tends to promote lizard-brain thinking and behavior, leading to thinking and sexual actions that are focused on pleasing the flesh, not deepening love and connecting at a spiritual level. (And, notably, novelties raise the bar so we need ever more novelty.)

In my situation, whether "lingerie" is "sin" is totally context dependent. There are times where I sense the Lord nudging me to put on something nice as a way of loving my husband. Sometimes it's appropriate to wrap myself up as a beautiful, valuable gift. Sometimes I can do that in a way that leads to loving rather than just sexual "heat."

Other times, I sense the Lord prompting me to cover up, because at that moment more clothing is needed to promote an encounter that's more about bonding than arousal. God is love, and Love is a living thing that speaks to us. It is easier to live by rules than Love, but we're called to the latter.

How long

have you two been trying karezza? Many men who are "great lovers" feel extra needy for sexual pleasure for a few months at first. This is something the wise men on this forum have taught me. But if you just stay with the practice, your brains become more sensitive to pleasure. This means the men can feel more satisfied...and less needy.

In other words, the dynamic reaches a new balance. Be optimistic, but don't push the river. The brain needs time to adjust its stimulation/pleasure ratio.

Perhaps this wasn't so much of a problem in days gone by, but now that men are constantly ratcheting up their need for stimulation (thanks to today's hypersexual, porn-flooded environment), it's likely that more of them need this kind of "adjustment period."

He's not "on board." I read

He's not "on board." I read Peace Between the Sheets some years ago. About 2.5 yrs ago, he read the first quarter of it and realized it's better to have fewer orgasms. But he doesn't want to give them up.

The old thread about "can a woman do karezza by herself" was helpful to me.

re: How does this fit into categories?

Undying, thanks for the excellent reply. I will attempt to address what you mentioned, with the caveats that 1) I see myself as a human, and I hope to help the Lord in any way I can be a vessel for Him, but sometimes this vessel has tiny cracks, sometimes not so tiny, yet the cracks are there. I will err; it is human, and 2) even though I hope to make this something of a ministry, we are, after all, talking about my 3rd post, and as it were, if this were a sculpture, right now it would be more shapeless obelisk and less Michaelangelo's David. It is certainly a work in progress, and I do have a penchant for throwing ideas up at the computer screen before they're fully formed. That being said, I open the forum of this blog up to tearing the ideas apart, because not only do I learn, but all readers do too. Anyway, onto the response to response...

[quote]Vacma: How does the landscape look if you think of the 2 kinds as fleshly and spiritual? (Not spiritual in the sense that Christians often use it, as in "good, respectable, and Christianlike" but as in, pertaining to the spirit, to a union of two human spirits, perhaps mediated by the Spirit of God.)[/quote]

That's exactly it. And I will give my theological reasons for it. I'll establish it by saying that I believe everything on Earth is a foreshadowing of Heaven, and that the Church (meaning the collective of Christian believers) is the Bride of Christ Jesus. It took me years to figure out what that meant. I would always wonder, "do we have sex with God in Heaven? Is that blasphemous to think that? What does that mean, we are His bride???" It's only now that I realize that the union of Christ and His Bride is spiritual, that deep connection that one between a husband and wife merely, for lack of a better word, mimics. There are other examples of human interactions being foreshadowings of Heavenly ones, like parent and child foreshadowing God and new creature in Christ, the laws enforced by man shadowing the guidance of the Holy Spirit, etc.

The other thing I'll say about the fleshly and spiritual dichotomy is that, if you look throughout the Bible, especially the Old Testament, you'll see that there are numerous examples of the old "flesh" being replaced or updated or improved by the new "spirit":

Adam is the first man; Jesus is the fulfillment of Adam
Solomon is Israel's first king; David is the fulfillment of Solomon
Ismael is Abraham's fleshly son; Isaac is the son God promised Abraham.

In these and many other instances, a deeper, more powerful, stronger, closer to the truth instance replaces a fleshly, surface-oriented attempt that fell short in the first place. Perhaps I can suggest that nonspiritual sex is the precursor to the fulfilling, deeper, spiritual sex? The one that isn't so much concerned about physical release as it is physical connection.

[quote]Also, vacma, to give my unasked for 2 cents as a Christian interested in karezza, I'm respectfully not very interested in a breakdown of what's sin/not sin.[/quote]

Are you talking about when I mentioned my opinion on masturbation? If you think masturbation is a sin, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. If that's how you feel, then I encourage you to live that way (Romans 14:14).

[quote]Also, frankly, I'm disgusted and offended that you think what's ok and not ok might change after babies. Really? You think God would say, "I understand that your wife's sexual market value has gone down due to aging and babies. Henceforth, thou shalt be allowed to dally with toys and lingerie."?[/quote]

My intent was never to disgust anyone, and as far as offending, I love to offend people, but that wasn't my intent here either. I am, however, confused by your use of "ok and not ok". Do I call it sin? Not at all. In fact, the only thing up there that I called or didn't call sin was masturbation, and I said that in my opinion, it wasn't sin. In other posts, I said that sex outside of marriage was sin in the Bible, are you referring to this? Can there be any question that if you're a Christian, adultery is off limits? Please, by all means, I want to know but you need to provide chapter and verse on that.

I did say that focusing on one's own orgasm at the expense of experiencing that blessed uniting of spouse to spouse was a sin. I meant that as a figure of speech like "what a shame", "too bad", "what a waste of an opportunity". I happen to believe that any sex act within the confines of marriage (i.e., no outsiders) is lawful, but am I not supposed to discuss that? Undying, is it okay with you if I talk about less-than-ideal sexual practices and their alternatives on my blog? I apologize for the poor choice of words, however, my meaning, now known, remains.

So no, I don't think God would say "post-babies sex" quote at all. Unfortunately I often think in theoretical terms so maybe that's creeping in too, but I've been with the same woman for 13 years, she has a 20 year old, a 19 year old, and we have an 8 year old, and I think she's more beautiful now than ever, and that includes seeing her high school senior yearbook pictures. It's not an either/or situation, find your wife sexy or have karezza, is it Marnia? I don't think that's true at all. What I think karezza is, and please correct me if I'm wrong Marnia, is "don't focus on your own orgasm, think about the interaction between you and your partner, that's what making love is all about it." I believe I said that I don't know where toys, lingerie, etc., fit in to a Christian's sexuality. I haven't a clue. I'll have to pray about that. Is it lawful? Probably. I've read Christian sex advice that says to bring in toys, but I have never understood that. If you're being told it's okay to bring toys into your bed, then that's probably the worst advice I've ever heard. That's exactly the wrong direction. I will admit, however, that I do use one of those back massagers... my hands get tired from rubbing my wife's back and they're a good fill-in while I recuperate.

I hope I was able to address your comments, and I hope I didn't misunderstand you too badly. God bless.

New job going well so far

Thank you for asking! There has been some time to snuggle, unfortunately it was because she was sick and called out one night.

I believe that, based on teachings of the Bible, Christians are to refrain from things like adultery, swinging, threesomes, polyamory, in other words, sex outside of marriage, and the reason why is because of the thrill of the novelty. To include another person, another soul, is an invasion of intimacy, and this is the focus of my next blog post, and the framework for my entire ministry. I haven't worked out where sex toys, masturbation, maybe even lingerie and fetish belong in a Christian marriage even though it may be within the law, perhaps a seasoned marriage (i.e., post-babies) isn't the right setting for them? I don't know, that's another entry to be sure.


I just found your post very interesting.

As a recovering PMO addict and a Christian, I have many thoughts along these lines. The Bible is pretty clear as to what adultery is... sexual immorality is cautioned against.

I'm not looking at these Biblical warnings and examples strictly from moral... good vs bad standpoint... I think much of the writings are just hard earned wisdom and "cause / effect studies" , much of the urge and temptation we are dealing with in modern times was also known to our ancestors! There is a lot of similar warning material in ancient spiritual writings of many cultures.

Can you tell me where I might read your Ministry blog?

You said it

You said it exactly right, sins are categorized as such not because God wants us to have a "bad' time or He wants to keep us from doing fun things. We are to abstain from sinful acts because it robs us of the best God has to offer for us.

Read the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon had 300 concubines, what did it get him? All of it was vanity, chasing the wind, pointless. Everything he did had no meaning. The only thing that gave meaning to his life was following God. And he wrote the book of Ecclesiastes, as well as Proverbs, and imparted his great wisdom to us. He lived the life, he made the mistakes, and through his writing of Holy Scripture, he taught us the right way to go.

As for my ministry blog, you're reading it now! Smile

Sorry for being critical

I don't know if we understood each other, but I think our hearts are in the right place.
I was trying to give feedback that some of the topics you're planning to write about don't sound interesting or useful to me. More knowledge of what's good and evil seems to have led the human race in the wrong direction so far. But I should have made clear that I don't want you to take that personally, and I hope you forge ahead with whatever writing you feel led to complete.

I come here to hear from fellow travelers. I'm so thankful for the trailblazing Marnia has done. Part of what makes karezza elusive is that we have to learn to distrust our instincts, to realize our blindness and accept guidance. Marnia offers amazing "guard rails" to help us not fall over the edge as many times as she did. Embracing the structure and rules of the Exchanges is what I hope to do when I have a willing partner.

So, I'm sorry again.

PS: Just for fun, I was thinking of some of the things I WOULD love to see here:
- an analysis of Anna Karenina in terms of neurochemistry
- where are the women? any other "ladies in waiting" like me?
- there seem to be a lot of men in waiting. it seems like they need info related to getting their ladies to trust their leadership in regard to karezza? is that available?

Anna Karenina

Once you start to see art through the glasses provided by karezza...the same insights are everywhere. Did you read Tolstoy's "Kreutzer Sonata?" He "got it," but he didn't ever accept the karezza solution. However, the doctor who wrote the first Karezza book actually visited Tolstoy(!), so it's possible they discussed it and he rejected it because he was pretty obsessed with procreation. Many, many kids.



Fascinating! I hadn't heard of the Kreutzer Sonata. It's strange to wonder how Tolstoi's gifts to the world might have been intensified had he been able to, well, make peace between the sheets. That is, if his sexual energy had been a power source rather than a hindrance/dissipation/distraction.

Do you have any insights on D.H. Lawrence or his works?

Is there any karezza fiction out there? I am interested in writing stories that illustrate the 'way', but first, of course, I need experience.


I couldn't agree more with Vacma's assessment that the Christian community needs to hear the karezza gospel.

I've been thinking for a long time that Marnia's book would be profoundly helpful to the Christian community. Christians already know to deny "the flesh," but don't know what that means. They have no idea how to disarm the biochemical doomsday device. They're distraught about porn, lousy marriages, and the divorce rate, so they do more and more marriage retreats, marriage study groups, marriage sermons, etc., but I doubt it's helping. (How could it when it doesn't address the root cause?)

We realize that the love of Christ ought to be seen in our marriages, but isn't, and no one knows what to do about it. Christians are going to be hugely receptive to karezza whenever someone (hopefully Marnia) is able to present it to them in their own language.

Wow, Catholic Church! :-(

For Christians who read their own Bible and think about these things for themselves, what I do with my wife between the sheets is between me, my wife, and God! As long as no one else is involved and she and I agree on what we do, that's lawful. If we have sex just to make babies, that's lawful. If we have sex because we love orgasms, that's lawful. If we choose to use condoms to prevent pregnancy, that's lawful. I hate to bring up food as a metaphor again, but it's so useful! I've got $3.50 and I can either buy this grilled chicken salad and iced tea for lunch, or I can buy the honey bun and Red Bull. They both cost the same (for this example) but which one is better for me? Which one will leave me more satisfied? Which one tastes better? There's nothing "illegal" about either choice, but the informed luncher knows how to choose wisely.

The simile breaks down because I believe orgasms do have a place at some point or other in a relationship, but honey buns and Red Bulls are nutritionally empty, pretty much.

It was

in the 1950s! Karezza came out only around 1900. Within 50 years it had spread to Europe and been officially stomped. Biggrin