Testimony from the street

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So since discovering these ideas and seeing the effect it's had on my body and mind so far, I seem to manage to find a way to talk about the passion cycle and karezza with just about everyone I get into a good conversation with (I just counted 17 people I've talked with about this over the past few weeks). I wanted to share a few of the observations and reactions. Some I thought were humorous, some interesting. Overall, men seem WAY more receptive. Oh, you should know that I always talk about this as what I'm learning and finding for myself, how I'm seeing my past relationships and where I want to be now. I'm never telling anyone what they should do:

Woman 1: "So when do I get to have my orgasm?"

Woman 2 (about 50yrs old): "Wait a minute, DON'T TELL ME I CAN'T HAVE AN ORGASM. They told me for years that I couldn't have orgasms and then they told me I should and it took me a long time to learn how to have orgasms and now you're telling me I can't have them! Well that makes me really...I don't know...angry"

Most of the men: "Yeah, I can see that." And followed by lots of curious inquiry into these ideas and relating to how they can see this pattern in their past relationships and how they really want something more sensual and not performance oriented or pressured.

Man 1: "I was with a woman in a long distance relationship for a while and she'd come over and we'd have sex and then she'd leave and I would think this really isn't working for me, I shouldn't keep doing this, and then at about exactly two weeks I would suddenly feel interested again and I'd call her up and ask her to come to see me. Can't I just have a relationship where we see each other and have sex every 2 weeks?"

Man 2: "That's exactly what happens, the next day I just have no interest at all in being around her. I'd rather she just not stay the night so I don't have to wake up and see her."

Woman 3, 4: "I can see that working for my husband."

Man 3, 4, 5, 6: "Where do I buy that book?"

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wow this is intriguing

How do you get into such discussions, let alone the frequency of them over a short period of time?

I've had these discussions with two people, both men, over maybe 2 weeks. Both are acquaintances of mine.

One guy was very open to it and was enthusiastic. The other guy, when he heard about the no orgasms part pretty much lost interest completely LOL.

I can't say it's an easy sell. Not that I care to sell it to anyone but Sparkles.

I am a marketing guy and I'm intrigued by how to sell this, though. I went to Amazon and looked up ED and there was hardly anything. Yet guys are popping pills like crazy and from this site I know it's often due to desensitization from too much porn use and porn addiction. However they don't want to read about it, they just want to take a pill.

That's how people are. They want magic and they don't want to really have to do anything to get it. In my life, Karezza is magic and everything about it has been so worth it. But I know it isn't for most people as they live their life more unconsciously especially when it comes to sex.

Well, to answer your question

Well, to answer your question about how I get into these discussions and so frequently, I guess the answers would be that I like intense, intimate conversations so I get into them. I'm open about myself in ways that most people are only with their lovers and so that tends to disarm people, if not simply intrigue them. Everyone loves to talk about sex, they're usually just scared or uncomfortable or aroused, so they avoid it unless it's with someone they're interested in sexually. I'm also intensely curious and scientifically minded and although I'm pretty convinced of these ideas, I haven't fully experienced how to get around the passion cycle so I'm 'gathering data'. I'm also single and don't have that close person in my life to explore this with so I'm exploring it intellectually with lots of people - married people, single people, people I might be interested in as a lover, people I'm definately not and then there's people who are just great to talk with.

I, too, have always found men more receptive

I think the reason is that guys generally experience the neurochemical hangover after orgasm faster and more definitively. It's possible they also recover differently. Gary notices more impact in week one, I in week two.

I think many men have genuinely wondered at how their perception shifts and why. Many women, on the other hand, just assume their mates are the problem...in part because the hangover tends not to hit them riight away like it does guys.

So much to learn.....

I've been talking to people about this for 20 years, and most are actually really interested in comparing notes with others. Their reality seldom matches the mainstream myth about what makes relationships work. So there's a lot of hidden pain in relationships, and each person thinks he/she is the exception. In fact, the "rule" may be quite different from the myth.

Make that 19 people,

Make that 19 people, including the school counselor who I've started to have discussions with about incorporating some of this into the school sex-ed curriculum. Part of my motivation here is that my child - under 10 - stumbled onto a bunch of internet porn images and I was worried about how this would affect her. I then found out that 'porn' was among the top internet search words for children between the ages of 8 and 12.

I think part of the difference I'm finding with men and women's responses might be that men seem to be able to take these ideas and observe them in conversation, even observing how they've been affected in the past, but from a more intellectual perspective. They tend to reflect on their past relationships and where they are at today either in their current relationship or, for the single guys, their current hesitations about getting into another relationship.

The women I've talked with seem to have a more emotional response, they can't seem to observe this as easily without feeling their own current and future disappointment in not getting an orgasm. The women who thought their husbands might be interested were interested themselves because they're disappointed with their husbands' 'performance' in bed. [This is something that I feel really disappointed in, to recognize that women put so much pressure on men and to see how they -and me not too long ago - objectify men. Although I don't blame them and I know they can change that, just as I have.]

I think the men I talk with also really like that a women is suggesting to them that they might not have to perform and live up to these intimidating expectations of satisfying a woman's intense desire for orgasm, something that for the single men who jump from relationship to relationship can be quite hard to achieve. And again, because I'm a woman talking with them, they are perhaps finding comfort in the possibility that a women might actually understand some of what they are struggling with and not judging them for wanting to run after they have sex and is understanding of how shitty it is to experience the neediness, jealousy and clingy behaviour of their female sexual partners.

Very insightful

Gary always laughs that his first reaction to my information was, "Finally...a woman who is asking men to do less." lol

In a sense the mainstreaming of porn via the Internet has put much of the pressure on today's younger generations. They see "machine-like sex" (not realizing that porn actors are required to use Viagra..just in case). No nuances or connection, which pair-bonding brains evolved to seek...more or less wink - see Guys: Where Do You Fall on the Monogamy Spectrum?. And the more both men and women are viewed/used as objects, the more they see themselves that way too, so it's a vicious circle. The hungrier we all get for true fulfillment...the more we pursue orgasms to try to fill the deep hole. No wonder we never stumble upon the "less is more" principle.

Where did you get the information about the 8-12-year olds and porn searches? I'd be really interested in seeing that.

Sounds about right to me. I

Sounds about right to me. I tried chatting with random online folks about this in as explicit a manner as one might do here. Craigslist can be useful for that type of thing. I ended up chatting somewhat extensively with a married woman who was pretty adamant about her orgasm. It was impossible for her to see another perspective. Any thought was too much thinking. Any suggestion that orgasm might be bad was obviously wrong because humans are capable and so might as well. Sex without orgasm was friction. Any talk of addiction was relevant to only addictive personalities and not possibly anyone else. She was very into multi-orgasmic experiences for both partners. A few times a month she had to masturbate in order to feel a high enough high. Her husband experiences no anxiety because he made her orgasm multiple times that day. I almost wanted to email her husband and find out his real views because this woman sounded hard to satisfy. She was anti-porn and claimed her husband has never masturbated (I didn't buy that).

Yeah, I joked with one friend

Yeah, I joked with one friend that he should put on his online dating profile "I don't give women orgasms" and see how far that gets him!

I completely agree with you Marnia. This is why I'm wanting kids to learn this.

I found a few different sources, one was this one: http://www.quickonlinetips.com/archives/2009/12/top-kids-teens-search-te...

My daughter came across porn because she snuck onto my computer and got onto google. From what I can gather, she simply wanted to know what sex meant. She thought the internet would tell her (that's where kids know to find answers) and at that point in her life (she was 7), we had only really gone online together to use youtube videos for things that interested her: pippi longstocking, dance competitions, things like that. So in her mind internet=movies. So yep, you guessed it, she typed in "Sex movies". Thankfully I found her before she got past the screen with about 20 intensely sexual search images to click on, but even that was traumatizing for her. She was so 'grossed out' she didn't want to talk about it with me. (I did my best to stay calm, open to her talking and make sure she didn't feel shame.)

haha I loved the " I don't

haha I loved the " I don't give women orgasms line". haha. I would actually be curious to see whether it would work.

I feel sorry for your daughter, but on the one hand you should feel proud for the responsibility that you're taken! I suspect that porn will become a very big challenge for a lot of youngsters growing up. I sometimes have a feeling that men are becoming more proud of watching endless streams of porn instead of interacting with real women. This is really sad to watch... and I've been quilty of it myself.

It's also cool to hear a women understanding the issues men face in dating.

Documentary Sext up Kids

I'm just listening to interview with the director of a new film called Sext Up Kids. I think this film would be of interest to folks here. They're talking about the effects of internet porn on children and teenagers and how it's affecting their ability to develop healthy relationships.

Here's the link to a podcast of the interview: http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2012/02/23/sext-up-kids---how-child...

Zia's experience

It is unfortunate and understandable that any discussion of sex without the goal of orgasm is seen as a regressive move by women. They view this as a back door attempt to bring back the dark ages when female sexuality was muzzled by society. It is unfortunate in that karezza, which is ultimately sex positive and relationship positive is viewed as being sex negative sans the goal of orgasm. To the extent that sex and orgasm are conflated in people's minds we will continue to have this communication issue.

2 positive reactions from

2 positive reactions from women, one more positive reaction from a man. So the guy was ready to go get the book right away, he was so interested. Both the women were quite interested because I think, like me, they've been through the passion cycle a few times and are ready to try something different. One of those women I'd talked to earlier and her first reaction was "what about my orgasm?", but then she challenged herself on why she reacted so strongly. Regardless of people's reactions, I'm learning so much from these conversations and it's challenging me to think about relationship in new ways. I love it. Let's talk it up folks, even if the initial reaction is just that, a REACTION.

we were talking about this

I've spoken to maybe 5 or 6 guys about this.

One tried it and is having awesome results, just as I have experienced.

Presented it to a whole group of maybe 8 guys and a few were interested but most were not.

I am not surprised. It's the "non orgasmic" part that is a tough sell for some reason.

But guys sometimes really get it. Haven't presented it to women yet though. I don't know why not but I am a bit shy about presenting this to women and don't have that type of relationship with women whom I'd feel comfortable talking to about it.

People might not have had a

People might not have had a chance to try it yet if they are not in a relationship or can't get a partner on board.

I've contemplated presenting some of these ideas in various settings. For many reasons, I'm not sure I want to actually go through with it. Perhaps I'd be more comfortable with actual experience. It's not exactly something one can readily pitch.

Saying I read a book and you might like the ideas could be a starting point I guess.

I wasn't interested either

when I first heard about Karezza. One of my mentors would say "when the fruit is ripe" for when you become receptive to an idea that previously you weren't receptive to.

Actually I now observe my own feelings when I resist a new idea actively and I always play with WHY I'm resistant to it and how maybe the other side of the coin is MORE true. That's what brought me here actually.

So I feel it's good to expose people to this idea and when they're ready they'll become attracted to it. Just like quitting porn may not be on someone's agenda when you first broach the topic but then it grows on them when the time is right.

So we are laying the groundwork so to speak. Not that I really care if anyone else does Karezza or not. I hope they do for their sake but it's not like it matters to me all that much. I have given up a long time ago on all those smug "if everyone would do this the world would be a better place" and I'm referring to my OWN smugness and my OWN belief in the rightness of my ideas.

I was telling someone the other day that I don't diss ideas as much as I used to because I might flip over one day and start AGREEING with that idea that I dissed just last week. Never can tell. I'm not Mr. Consistency and I'm happy that way (being inconsistent.)