Submitted by John Humphrey Noyes on
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When I went to Lamaze with my wife the instructor explained the Kegel exercise but noted that the men shouldn't try this at home, as "men don't have Kegel muscles." Wow, did I fall for that. And it seems to me that Dr. Kegel's original idea was unfortunately corrupted by his and his wife's idea that money could be made by selling an exercise device, really just a glorified dildo, for the muscles involved in urinary continence.

But the original idea is ancient, of course, and it is simply deliberate pulsatile urination (my term, but you get the idea). Dogs do it when they mark their territory. But back to Dr. Kegel, it seems he only recommended interrupted urination in order to get a feel for the muscles involved, after which you could simply flex the muscles at any old time during the day...urination not necessary.

This idea has been copied and pasted ad infinitum on the internet, and I strongly disagree. The only useful exercise of these muscles is during actual urination. If you have the discipline to practice deliberate pulsatile urination every time you urinate, after a year or so the muscles are so strong and well controlled that orgasm hasn't got a chance.

Otherwise--if the only exercise these muscles get is through orgasm control, it just isn't enough. You'd have to have an absurd amount of sex.

If you Google this general topic you will come across a page from Johns Hopkins Medical Center, I believe, where deliberate pulsatile urination is cautioned against as an exercise which actually weakens the muscles. There is a grain of truth there, but the conclusion is nonsense. During the first few weeks of these exercises, there can be some pain. If you Google that you will be advised that the pain results from your urine being too acidic, and you will be advised to change your diet. Also nonsense. You can easily check the pH of your urine and determine that it is just fine. I don't know what causes the pain, not everyone may get it, but it can come and go, it's not that bad, and after a few months it will pass.

As for the muscles being weakened, a few days after you start the exercises, and then lasting for a few weeks, when you get the urge to urinate you can't get to the the bathroom fast enough. That's the grain of truth. But it would be wrong to conclude that the muscles have been weakened. They are just becoming used to being controlled more deliberately. After a few months that feeling of no control will also pass, and you will just have a heightened awareness of when you really ought to urinate. And that's a good thing.

fter a year of these exercises you will have mastered urination, and assuming your partner isn't trying to drag one out of you, you can now go into the bedroom with absolutely no fear of orgasm, because the same muscles that control urination control orgasm.

just a question:

John, when you say "no fear of orgasm" are you specifically referring to ejaculation? Or can one ultimately stop orgasm altogether through the use of these muscles.

I have heard that people can avoid *ejaculation* upon orgasm... but I have also heard that this is dangerous, as it can lead to urinary tract infections (or something like that).

Maybe you could clarify. Thanks!

Orgasm vs Ejaculation

I know about the school of thought that you can separate ejaculation and orgasm, or ejaculate into the bladder, but I am old school and consider ejaculation and orgasm to occur simultaneously, by definition. The term "orgasm" should refer more specifically to the hormonal spike. I am very skeptical of people, even women, who claim to have orgasms without ejaculation. I'd have to see before and after analyses of their blood hormone levels. I suppose it is possible, considering the weird stuff you see on Ripley's believe it or not. I think these claims are really just word games, where people are using the word "orgasm" to mean the dry heaves or something.


I am skeptical that women have orgasm, i.e., the definitive blood hormone spikes, without ejaculation, as in "female ejaculation." The quantity of ejaculate surely varies, just as with men, but with women it isn't necessarily shot out of the body in such a dramatic fashion. Of course the internet, so I'm told, is full of porn wherein female urination during masturbation is advertised as ejaculation.


it's not clear that the substance "shot" is urine, although that discussion is kind of irrelevant on this site. Smile

We women do not think of lubrication as "ejaculation," and it sounds a bit weird to be "told in no uncertain terms that it is" by a man. *chuckle*


Well, there's lubrication, and there's lubrication. The female lubrication that comes with foreplay is analogous to male pre-cum, I suppose, though it may be more copious. Or maybe it's analogous to the lubrication that comes from the gland in the male foreskin. The lubrication that comes with female orgasm would be female ejaculate.

Are you saying that the term "female ejaculation" is politically incorrect or something?


...some of those girls who can "squirt" a bit of urine in order to simulate female ejaculation are demonstrating pretty good sphincter control.

My experience is that female

My experience is that female ejaculation and orgasm do not necessarily coincide. I read a book awhile back (unfortunately I don't remember the title) that said that when analyzed, female ejaculate was distinguishable from urination by the presence of certain chemical compounds that are released only by the Skeene's Gland and which do not show up when women urinate.

I think ejaculation is a term that most people don't associate with female lubrication and so is misleading. I am also wondering if you think that the ejaculation experienced by women that is a forceful release of fluid from the urethra is nothing more than urine?

My experience is that the bearing down sensation that causes ejaculation to happen is not actually due primarily to the force of the sphincter muscles, but to whichever muscles push the cervix and vaginal muscles down - BUT, I would like to add that a strong vagina is one that can pull up and push down, its a reciprocal thing, so of course the lower pelvic muscles including the sphincter are involved in the process as a whole.

forceful release of fluid from the urethra

The Wikipedia article on female ejaculation discusses women who squirt urine at orgasm, and I've seen videos. The volume in these videos is too large to be anything else. Some women may squirt urine reflexively, and others may do it to put on a show for the camera. But I am not saying all female ejaculation is nothing more than urine. There are also secretions from Skeene's and Bartholin's glands involved. As for lubrication, my favorite secretion would have to be cervical mucous. Definitely no orgasm required for that.

controlling orgasm?

I had the same question as you, 'Duke.

The only way I know to postpone or avoid orgasm for myself is to slow down or stop stimulation. In my experience, intentionally engaging the PC muscles has no effect on either accelerating or delaying orgasm. However I haven't practiced Kegels as much as Mr. Noyes has.

As I mention at , it is possible to prevent external ejaculation by clamping down hard with the PC muscles. I was able to do that after a few weeks of Kegel exercises, maybe a couple minutes per day of squeezing and releasing the muscles that block urination. I never noticed any pain or urgency of urination problems resulting from the Kegels themselves, but as I said in that post I did have a couple episodes of epididymitis around some times when I was preventing ejaculation that way. It's unusual for men to get epididymitis twice in a lifetime, which makes me wonder if suppressing ejaculation caused it. On the other hand, I had a vasectomy about three years earlier which disconnected the plumbing between the epididymis and the prostate, so I don't know how suppressing ejaculation could have caused it.

At Marnia mentions overheating Gary and giving him what sounds like blue balls or in that case maybe it should be called blue prostate. I don't know why my experience should be so different. I've practiced getting close to the edge using my relaxation technique thousands of times, including tens of hours of masturbating without orgasm, and never had any discomfort that I associated with getting close to the edge

controlling orgasm?

Huh? On the one hand, you say, "intentionally engaging the PC muscles has no effect," but then you say, "it is possible to prevent external ejaculation by clamping down hard with the PC muscles. I was able to do that...." Which is it?

There is no doubt that to "slow down or stop stimulation" helps, but sphincter control does, too.

"Maybe a couple minutes per day of squeezing and releasing the muscles that block urination," just isn't enough exercise, especially if you are not urinating at the time. The urine flow is necessary biofeedback. It would be better to develop the habit of rhythmically stopping and starting the flow of urine every time you urinate, maybe 30 or 50 times per urination. It is during the urination exercise that you may get a little pain in the beginning, not during sex. I'm not sure why, but I don't think it's a pH problem.

It isn't at all necessary, but an amusing variation, even for women, is to do the urination exercise with an erection.

Don't take this as a put down, because I understand your enthusiasm for experimentation, but I think "tens of hours of masturbating without orgasm" can lead to troubling thoughts and is likely to be noticed in subtle ways by friends and coworkers. And it's about as boring as playing tennis against a wall. I understand you want to master orgasm control, but I think the urination exercise accomplishes the same thing in a much more wholesome and efficient manner.

The only problem is finding a non-orgasmic partner. Psychologically, the "fear of orgasm" is tied to the fact that most potential mates think there is something abnormal about not wanting to have an orgasm, and if you shut yourself and/or her down, i.e., "slow down or stop stimulation" just when she thinks you and/or she are about to go through heaven's gate, well she is very likely never to come through your own gate ever again. After you master the physics, you are not so much afraid you will orgasm as afraid of your partner leaving you if you don't.

orgasm =/= ejaculation

Ejaculation is the (usually forceful) discharge of fluid.
Orgasm is an intense peak sensation.
Normally, in men, orgasm and ejaculation occur together, near-simultaneously. (Typically, the whole event lasts about 5-10 seconds.) But there are at least a couple exceptions:
- Dream orgasms sometimes have no accompanying discharge. I would speculate that either there is no fluid in the prostate when a "dry" dream orgasm occurs, or there are no ejaculatory muscle contractions associated with a "dry" dream orgasm.
- Some people, such as I, can have an orgasm without external discharge by clamping down on the PC muscles during orgasm.

The other thing I said was that I have not been able to affect the timing or occurrence of orgasm (intense peak sensation) by activating the PC muscles. Yes, I can prevent external ejaculation when orgasm occurs. Not the same thing.

You've obviously done a lot more of those exercises than I have. Do you consciously clamp down to prevent what you call orgasm? Do you clamp down for just a few seconds at a time, or for minutes at a time, to prevent orgasm? When clamping down, do you experience intense sensations, like riding the edge of orgasm? (If so, I think you are having multiple orgasms and suppressing ejaculation except perhaps for the last one.)

At what age did you start doing the exercises? What changes did you notice as a result?

Dream orgasms??

Now this is what annoys me.

1) Sometimes I dream I am flying, but that doesn't mean I am actually doing it.

2) Just because edging gives you an "intense peak sensation," that doesn't make it an orgasm. Show me before and after analyses of your blood hormone levels and I'll believe you.

3) Even if you ARE able to have multiple orgasms through your technique of edging without ejaculation, the whole point of this Reuniting group is to AVOID orgasms, isn't it?

Urination exercises keep the Kegel muscles toned and well controlled in spite of one's celibacy.


It's better to be celibate than to be in a relationship with someone who demands orgasm. But I'm sure a lot of orgasmic couples consider themselves to be in "loving union," and may well appear to be to all the world. Ignorance is bliss. Having said that, I hate celibacy. What we need is a personals website for non-orgasmics...all 2 of us. On generic personals websites, sometimes I advertise myself as non-orgasmic, but it usually scares people away. Sometimes I get the relationship started first and break it to them gently, before, during, or after intercourse. Obviously nothing has worked up to now. Got any ideas? Single friends? Sisters?


It's definitely a challenge. My hope was that my book would be a useful tool for people who want to share the ideas with a potential partner. You don't have to sell someone on the whole idea just to try a three-week program like the Exchanges. By then, most people will begin to see the benefits. And if they don't, chances are they soon will after you return to conventional sex!

Also, after a few chapters, most people begin to see the connection between hot sex and relationship deterioration.

It's a major

education effort we're faced with here. I was happy to see that with "Peace Between the Sheets," if people read the first 3-4 chapters they began to put it all together for themselves...even if they were sure the idea was crazy when they started the book. So it IS possible for people to realize the wisdom of experimenting with other approaches. There's just no " 15-second soundbite" approach that seems to work.

Yes, and especially

if the 15 seconds in question are the last 15 seconds before orgasm. It's really hard to get anyone's attention at that moment, I think. :) Personally, I've spent enough time fearing both orgasm, and fearing another partner fleeing because I don't want to have one. I prefer being a little more optimistic these days. I'm putting my money on the next book being at least as effective, if not more, in awakening potential partners. Is is June yet?

Accepting Sex as a Substitute for Love

Fascinating thread. My last lover was very orgasmic and also experienced female ejaculation - the first time I had encountered this in real life. It did not have the smell of urine and I also experienced that the ejaculate had some lubricating properties but thinner, unlike the wonderful mucous that normally lubricates an aroused vagina.

On the topic of loving union, I agree that is a lofty goal and one I share. Walt Disney is correct: "If you can dream it, you can do it." I believe achieving this is a complex mixture of many issues. Like perhaps it is not orgasm per se, but the attitude of "demanding orgasm" that is a piece of relationship dysfunction.

I believe there are many loving relationships that can thrive with orgasm as they sublimate their "egoistic" selves and love their partner unconditionally. To orgasm or not to orgasm (pun intended - thanks Will.) may not be the issue but ones approach to sex is. Selfish, hungry, orgasmic sex - the cultural norm that is worshiped in Cosmo and Men's Health as examples, is all about ego, self. It does not matter if you want orgasms for yourself or the ego gratification of doing your lover to feel sexy and powerful. In my mind's eye, spiritual sex is all about union and improving conscious contact with God, by definition, it cannot be results oriented in any way, shape or form. Perfect love casts out fear and fear of orgasm (or fear of not having orgasm - pick your poison) in the bedroom, seems to be a hindrance to a loving, spirit filled connection.

I am realizing that orgasmic sex becomes a deadly element to true loving intimacy when the partners have deep emotional issues and are blocked in arrested emotional development, typically due to childhood trauma. Leave that topic for another day. You can't love another person if you do not love your self and in that type of situation, sex with self or sex with others becomes a tortured game of manipulation, self sabotage, cruelty and punishment.

Enter pornography, sexual addiction and so much more - all the stuff we dialogue on here in the community.

When I first began my recovery, I was convinced I would rather die without orgasmic sex. Then this dance with cancer entered my life and I told myself, be careful what you ask for!

Now I am living with cancer better than I did in my life of addiction and my future is so bright, I wear dark glasses.

I am living a life of sexual celibacy, along with orgasmic abstinence in "the power of now" and each moment defines what is best for my body, mind and spirit. I do see that abstinence is the path to God as I replace the worship of my addictive sexual behavior and clear my life and my mind to experience a closer walk with God. Back then, sex got in the way of experiencing God. Being free from such addictive behavior opens heaven's gates to the potential for the sexual union we write about on this site.

A very good thing!


What you say makes

a lot of sense, Richard. I love your lyrical, inspiring writing (why didn't I get that gene? :) ), but to get "scientific" for a moment, of course craving an orgasm, or driving toward it, is going to send dopamine into the red zone, and makes any of us more selfish and insensitive than usual. That is its drive us toward things that further our survival, make us strive for dominance, and pass on our genes. None of us *try* to be insensitive. We don't even realize our mating neurochemistry is playing a role in our priorities.

I haven't had any luck with avoiding the hangover completely with orgasm in the picture...even the inadvertent ones. And I'm not sure that even loving couples escape the hangover entirely. A subconscious sense of lack can show up *anywhere* in one's life. It's not necessarily projected onto a partner. This link between orgasm and avoidable bumps in the road requires careful observation to spot.