Karezza between two women?

Submitted by Zelin on
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How do you do this? Is this even necessary?

I found that in my own experience with my male partners, the issue was how he would go out of sync with me once we started having sex (and I would feel INTENSELY bonded after an orgasm) and I would feel like I'd gotten close to someone only to have them ripped from me. I didn't have issues being postcoitally emotionally out of sync with my woman partner, so it never occurred to me to try to avoid orgasm - although this community may have been helpful for other reasons. We may have benefited from less of a "getting off" approach to our sex and she had a very hard time having an orgasm, so being "let off the hook" for one may have been helpful.

Is there any benefit to avoiding orgasm for women?

How do the principles of Karezza apply to two women?

How do you have this style of sex when there is no penis involved? I was interested in sacred sexuality approaches, too, but couldn't wrap my mind around how to do many of the practices if there is no penile penetration.

I have no idea about the mechanics

but I do think that there is huge benefit from abstaining from orgasms for women. Women go through a passion cycle, I am sure. I've observed it in my woman and that's what Marnia and Gary's book Cupid's Poisoned Arrow is about. Have you read it yet?

This is probably a big reason so many women have relationship cycles that lead to passion, separation, clinginess/neediness, getting back together, separating again, etc. Karezza would remove all that drama I would think -- so doesn't that sound like a good idea?


In my own relationships, it

In my own relationships, it always felt like they were the ones detaching after sex, not me. I'd bond then suddenly they'd detach and then I'd feel needy.

My relationship with my ex girlfriend, it seemed like she was the one experiencing a lot of the insecurity and bringing drama into the relationship - I was the secure one.

So, who knows?

I do know that I'm tired of the passion cycle and it led me to prefer my chaste friendships over dating. It's good to know there's another way,

Are you sure it couldn't just

Are you sure it couldn't just as readily been you felt needy and they detached. We're always the same 50% of a relationship.

How did it feel to be the secure versus insecure partner? Both are fine perhaps as few people will be secure all the time.

Hmm, interesting. I always

Hmm, interesting. I always feel a little intense after sex - I do feel needier and more vulnerable and more emotional. My emotions are much closer to the surface.

My partners always seem more distant at about this point - but who knows, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

we've talked about this before

but the weird thing, is your partner's orgasm can have an effect on YOU. I don't know how or why but my partner's orgasm will result in some weirdness over the next two weeks. I doubt it's different for gay people as it is for straight.

I think you may be a pioneer here

No two people seem to be affected identically by orgasm, so it's hard to say what changes you two would see if you cut back. We'd be interested in hearing what you learn, though.

Some women definitely are affected by a neurochemical cycle after orgasm (and/or penetrative sex...more below). For some of us it's very hidden, delayed, and projected outward so completely that we don't realize we have become harder to please for a bit. The result is that we perceive that others are letting us down.

Scientists have finally begun to look at the cycle of female orgasm in sort of vague ways. Here's a study that found more or less immediate "hangovers" (of tears or irritability) in women: An epidemiological survey of post-coital ... [Twin Res Hum Genet. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

This one's even less comprehensible, but the scientist is talking about hormonal pulses induced by sexual activity in women and female rats http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/140/5/643.long There's this cryptic info near the end:

preliminary data by our own research group might indicate an altered PRL [prolactin] secretion pattern after sexual intercourse with a nocturnal as well as a diurnal PRL surge during a 24 h analysis comparable to the situation in the rat studies (study in progress). Consequently, there might be some overlap in human and rat physiology .... If this preliminary observation in humans is further validated, consequent studies on the significance of such a PRL secretory pattern will be of interest.

And this info earlier in the study:

[We have formulated] two theories on the function of increased PRL levels after sexual activity (Fig. 5). First, PRL may take part in a sexual satiation mechanism indicating a reduced dopaminergic tone in hypothalamic brain areas after orgasm and/or serving as a negative feedback on dopaminergic neurons in ... brain areas that are crucial for appetitive behavior and reward (Kruger et al. 2002). Second, in parallel to animal studies, PRL might be a part of an orgasm-induced neuroendocrine reproductive reflex optimizing fertility and conception.

In other words, the post-sex changes in prolactin may turn off some people's sex drive (or make arousal more challenging) for a bit, or prepare them for a more successful pregnancy, if it occurs.

However, there's some evidence in rats that vigorous copulation is required to set the 2-week prolactin surge pattern in action. So if you and your partner just stick to bonding behaviors and gentler contact, maybe this cycle is avoided. Almost nothing is really known about this yet.

Here's our attempt to put the key data together in a "Psychology Today" post: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/200908/the-pas...

Lots to learn here. Glad you've joined the exploration.

I'm one of the tearful ones.

However, I didn't know it was a hangover symptom until you mentioned it here.  I'm not sure when I aquired  it either, as I didn't start out (oh so many years ago!) that way.   But it would hit me within seconds of an orgasm.  

Sex is still very 'intense' for me, but we're not doing vigorous sex. 


That is a good question

That is a good question Marnia. Why, indeed, is this area of research not dug into with gusto? I would like an explanation for that. What, beyond the obvious explanation that happiness does not make the companies who fund research money? Really now. Where do the knights templar come in to all of this? What is going on here?