Changing the rules

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So I've got another complex question without any easy answers.
Ok, so since I've discovered this site I have received a new paradigm. A few years back, I found myself 25 and a virgin. I studied some "pick up artist" techniques and finally got laid, had a few bad relationships for a few years, then gave up for a while, gave up porn, and my virginity grew back. Found this site, learned a few things...

So the new paradigm is about simply treating a woman right, make her feel good, be a gentleman, and not a jerk. In fact, if women were truly attracted to jerks, they wouldn't do cliche things like test men and be angry for us being insensitive and all that. Before I discovered this paradigm I was actually baffled at my friends who were very good with women bc they didn't do any of the PUA stuff I was learning or the "cocky comedy, bust her balls" stuff. And in theory, since I'm working with an entirely new set of tools( ie karezza and not coming together from a standpoint of pure lust) the rules are different.

What I want to know is: Does this all change the relationship dynamic as with respect to "The Friend Zone"?
In theory, instead of just sleeping with her as soon as possible, can things start out as a friendship with handholding, cuddling, eventually making out and then, one day sex, as long as I communicate a sort of interest in a woman that's not overt but yet keeps me away from TFZ? This is a theory I just thought of, and I may have watched too many movies. I want to know what people think...

Mainly I just want a way to keep the pressure and nervousness and performance anxiety off myself while I get to know a few people. And if I tell myself, don't worry about it, just make friends and let the rest happen it really helps. Another part of my paradigm that has changed is that if I approach or email a woman and don't get anything back, instead of thinking, oh she doesn't like me, isn't attracted(the subtext of which is that I'm not attractive), I think maybe its just neutral and not negative, maybe she liked me / was attracted, but didn't feel a connection.

I've thought

about this question myself.

What works in a porn saturated world, where both men and women are learning "how sex works" from porn, women may be looking for overt alpha-ish signals.

But, what their nervous systems evolved to seek isn't just quick sex (all the time). It's evidence of bonding potential.

Sometimes you have to deliver what people need for a relationship with long-term potential, even if they don't know it's what they need for that.

Personally, I think getting to know someone is a better approach, for many reasons. As long as you're giving off the "I think you're pretty cool" signals, she can sustain her interest long enough. Also, remember those subtler bonding signals. They are as powerful as foreplay in their own way. Ideas here: The Lazy Way to Stay in Love

I have been hanging out with

I have been hanging out with friends a lot more lately, and even some girls.

One thing I have noticed that is different is as follows. This girl has a man, but she is also very affectionate and does stuff like hand holding, hugs and gazing into my eyes. I have noticed times where I felt a vibration, sorta like arousal sort of feeling somewhat like my solo cultivation experiences, yet on a lower level, but only for a minute. Yes, I do find her attractive. I think this may be that "subtler bonding" energy?
But being around women has been really great bc I am receiving some Yin and somehow it has helped me clear away some issues I was having. For example, something like 90% of my sexual frustration not getting laid in so long is just gone. As long as I can just be around women like this I will be a lot better

Subtler Bonding Energy

I think that you may have nailed it. In my life there are a number of friendships with women that I find energizing and pleasant. These are not relationships that will lead to sexual activity, I've never even thought in those terms. Actually, most of these women are people I have met in the course of my business life. The majority of these women are married, raising families, etc. I would never want to intrude upon anyone's marriage or contribute to the breakup of a family. But these friends are people that seem genuinely happy to see me, enjoy talking to me about their lives, their families, etc.

I think it may come down to female and male energies interacting. I think that this is a huge reason that more open cultures tend to thrive while closed cultures do not do as well. The friendly smile from the lady at the supermarket checkout stand is no big thing, but it is one small element of pleasantness that I can carry with me throughout my day. These things add up and contribute to the emotional energy I use to get through the day.

I would also opine that the energy flow is actually better when I interact with female friends that are married. The reason? Simple; they know where the boundaries are and feel free to operate within those boundaries. I should also point out that I make sure to include certain reminders within are conversation; I inquire about their spouse and their families. I don't want to risk leaving the wrong impression about my motives.

The idea that men and women cannot become sincere friends is straight out of the worst facets of religious oppression. None of the women I am friends with will ever end up in my bed. That's not where I want things to go. In fact, I doubt that any of these friendships will ever go anywhere beyond where they are right now. That's fine! In fact it's great! A few moments of pleasant interaction form time to time is an end unto itself. It's nice to know that I can have my day brightened and that I can brighten the day of someone else.

Filled Up Man Vibe

Darryl really has the unique take on this - how to interact socially with a woman - since conventional sex unmans a guy, it comes down to getting clear about the role of the man. Being content with the role of sending energy and not approaching a woman as though it's her job to please the man sexually. That's quite an internal psychological change a man can make. Then, being filled up, not depleating himself through masturbation/ejaculation, it puts out a vibe that often attracts women. They're not conscious of it, but they obviously feel something's different. Women friends flirt with me a lot, whether Donna's around or not. I don't feel like i'm doing anything to bring this on - Donna reminds me by saying its "the Filled Up Man Vibe" they're grooving on.


I haven't noticed this (yet?) myself. But honestly I don't have a lot of women around here so I haven't been able to observe this phenom. I do find that I can look women in the eye like never before.

I think there were a few

I think there were a few things I learned studying PUA stuff that were accurate.

One is confidence, carrying yourself (expression, body language) as if you are likeable and know how to make women feel good, and another the idea that, if you haven't approached and been rejected by women 1000 times, you aren't even a beginner.

I'm really working on this last one. It's very hard for me right now to just keep trying. Keep it up and eventually I will, I wanna say get good at it, but truthfully I think its about reaching a point where rejection is no longer as scary and I can relax more and truly be myself.

I'm thinking about Michael Jordan. He was cut from his high school basketball team the first year he tried out, and he said, "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."

I do believe it's working.

I do believe it's working. Sort of.

I got the opportunity to hang out with a hot girl over thanksgiving weekend while I was visiting friends in another city. And I have been giving the "show her you are genuinely interested" a try.

And I found that when I gazed into her eyes with a slight smile on my face,  interested in what she was saying, she smiled too, and I think her cheeks became slightly rosier a few times.  Good

I don't know if I will see her again, as this was sort of a unique opportunity, but, we'll see. (that eye gazing was hard, I still have a hard time looking women in the eye, I still feel sometimes as if I'm some kind of unworthy fraud or something )

However, I am kind of a chicken shit. I didn't move things physically, like I'm sure hand holding comes first, then maybe kissing. I didn't even get to the hand holding. Once I get past the first kiss, I'm set and the rest just happens, but have a really hard time getting there. I don't know how to time it.

And I probably just need to take the risk and do it, plain and simple...

Bonding behaviors

like eye gazing and smiling are powerful stuff. No wonder her cheeks got rosier. Wink

Trust the timing. Sounds like the next step is to make an excuse to see her again.

I'm struggling. Can't think

I'm struggling. Can't think of an excuse, but maybe the truth could work?

As in, I would simply like to see her again, bc shes beautiful, smart, and I like her personality.

maybe my problem is trying too hard to be smooth instead of just saying anything simple to start with until I develop more experience and can be smooth --er.

Sounds good

to me, and I mean that sincerely. There's no predicting these things.

Maybe just keep it light and come up with an activity that's not too intimate at first so she has a chance to get to know you better.

It may be better to say you "like her smile" or something like that rather than tell her she's beautiful. You can let her know that with your eyes. Wink

Well I had a conversation

Well I had a conversation with her. It didn't go really well, but didn't go badly either. Basically she doesn't feel optimistic about it as we may not see each other much due to distance, but I'm going to let her know when I'll be in her area and she'll see whats she's doing and whether she can join me for something fun I'll be doing anyway.

But I'd like to get this page back on the original subject.

Yes and I have. So far, a lot

Yes and I have. So far, a lot of them have boyfriends already. But Im sure if I keep making friends eventually one of them will have another single friend, right?

Although I still seem to get some good conversations going. "Filled up Man Vibe" -- they just seem to really want to talk to me lately.

I've been experiencing a lot

I've been experiencing a lot of feeling hellishly nervous/insecure lately. And I've realized it's just something I have to go through. I must face the fear. I'm opening up in ways I haven't before. But it's terrifying...

And one of the things I've been insecure about was the fact that most women out there are probably still attached to the social programming they have received that "alpha males" and what's newest or most extravagant or whatever is what's hot. How can I win by using this Friends First frame? And of course I couldn't possibly just be attractive in some way, could I?

And I realized that it's about evolution and it's not my job to try and make a woman stop believing in that programming. It is something they must come to by themselves. I think this will help me immensely in having faith in the program I have outlined on this page. I will just do what I do and eventually someone will come along that wants me for who I am and who I decide to be. I am the Yang, the sunshine. 

I guess I have a problem internalizing the data, what I'm actually seeing happen right in front of me, but then, it took a LOT of negative things happening to me to get me where I am too. I don't think the scales will tip the other way for a good while.

I put "alpha male" in quotes bc in the animal world, the behavior that we humans call alpha male behavior among humans would not make you an alpha male. The alpha male in the pack is the one who is the most balanced, mentally stable, and level headed. And the other animals don't want to be the alpha. He is under the most stress by far. They need someone to take away the stress of leadership.

Also, I found this article, sort of interesting:

Ohhhh! Ughhh! Owww! Damn this

Ohhhh! Ughhh! Owww! Damn this really is hard! so recent events have been dragging this hell out of me. My shadow is very apparent right now.

And I realize that the major thing getting in my way as far as relationships and women IS:

Approval Addiction(neediness), something to feed my ego because I feel empty... 

Something positive happens, then I think about it a lot bc it makes me feel good about myself. This is a trap, bc each event can only feed my ego so much, then my ego/shadow starts clubbing me over the head with why it's not true that "she likes me" or people in general like me, twisting everything 180 degrees around. Of course, trying to feed it at this point makes it worse and not better. And I just get into this state where I am completely helpless bc I lose all positive thinking and can't even believe in my own ability to say hi to someone.

I'm learning to just focus on the moment and not anything that can feed my ego, realizing that when good things happen, it's just cuz I'm cool and just accept it then move on, no longer think about it, but it's so damn hard. It's like, too much positive thinking makes my mind think that I'm trying to convince myself. Next thing I know, I'm back in Brain Lock(Not to allude to a Jeffrey M. Schwartz book, but there it is). I feel pretty hopeless right now.

But, then, I have these moments where I realize, It's my job to be Yang(Energy sender, Lover) and the woman's job to be Yin(Receptive, Nurturing) and that I just play my part and it doesn't matter. Someone will always receive. When I am in this state I feel excited and hopeful about these friendships and women I meet. But then It falls apart at some point.

I've realized that the main area this Approval Addiction shows up is in having a "crush" on this girl or that girl but hardly being able to do anything about it. Because every step of the way follows the pattern in the above paragraph. And when I can get out of the OCD to the desired state, the "crush" feeling is gone and I just feel excited about a friendship with her and where it may or not lead. That is a state of mind I can use! But I need to stay there more often.

I have some work to do...

I think it's normal

to get all aquiver when a potential mate enters one's aura. Sure, it helps to stay present and not get attached. But those honeymoon neurochemicals don't know that. Wink

Be gentle with yourself.

The mindset I'm looking for

The mindset I'm looking for is actually quite simple to get into. And most of the time when I get there I get there by simply telling myself that things ARE in fact going to stay where they are at, everything is what it is, and no need to worry or think about the future. People don't magically stop liking me all of a sudden. Just be in Now. I think it's hard bc it's too easy. My mind wants to go a mile a minute, not slow down...

Thanks, I'll do my best to be nice to myself. I think this may all be a product of me beating myself down, anyway. I'm feeling an inner resistance to this changing of my opinion of myself.

Good observation

Just break through that resistance. Try looking in the mirror daily and saying, "I love and approve of myself." (I think I've mentioned this before.) Just try it. And if you can't do it because arguments come up in your brain, write them down and I'll tell you the next step. Wink

Alright. So, I thought I

Alright. So, I thought I would post the new information I have learned.

Most important, Have an attitude of not needing anything from women.... This takes true honesty with yourself...

The reason us "nice guys" get put in the so called "friend zone" is because we aren't really nice. We expect women to want us for being "great guys" or our ability in the bedroom, or whatever...  we're not correct.

The Divine Feminine has been in a state of being denied for at least 10,000 years, and probably longer. We males can't pay it back, so, whatever it takes, maybe some of us will succeed, maybe some of us won't.....

I've personally thought of the idea that I may have to spend the rest of my life as an asexual spiritualist. Not my choice, of course, but if I were to decide that sex makes me happy, and, of course, it requires a woman for me to have sex(be happy)., then, I am screwed, so, I am patient and waiting.... So, if someone comes along, I will be very happy. If they don't, well, I am preparing to be in the place of not needing.... Does that mean I can live....? dunno.

It was just that, I kept

It was just that, I kept hitting the wall... I am now in a position of figuring why... and... I think I have more ways to go before I am "together", the type of guy women want to be with. If I was now, it couldn't possibly be so hard, and I wouldn't have an almost 5 year loneliness streak...

ultimately one thing gets you a woman

and that is meeting women.

All the rest is analysis by paralysis.

Really, man. This is a skill.

The average man only approaches a handful of women in his whole LIFE. There are a ton of places you can learn and practice approaching women. And even if you're crummy at it, you'll meet Ms. Right one of these days. And meanwhile have an amazing time.

The brain is great at creating rationalizations. If you don't masturbate and exercise you'll end up building up a strong sex drive and become more flirty and aggressive with women naturally. The missing ingredient is JUST DO IT. Everyone feels fear, but a winning characteristic is to act despite fear and be really CRAPPY at something at first and be okay with being crappy.


With respect,

With respect,

I am not going to stop talking with women. I am going to still attempt interactions and conversation, I just will not date until I am ready.Recent events have made it clear that I am not, that I must get myself together first. See my last two blog entries if you do not believe me.

Look, I just really think this is what I need to do...

[quote=emerson]The average man only approaches a handful of women in his whole LIFE. [/quote]

Just a handful? They must be either way better than me or awful at it...

emerson wrote:


The average man only approaches a handful of women in his whole LIFE.

[/quote] Do you have a source for that? I suppose it depends upon how one defines approaches.