Sleep weirdness

Submitted by spaceman98 on
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Hi there,
I met my partner 3 months ago and we both were inspired by peace between the sheets and this approach to intimacy .
We live in different cities and can only see each other 2 nights a week occasionally more.
We stayed at the shallow end for a good while and during this phase we could be up for hours enjoying intimacy and found sleep didn't come easy . Whilst we had 10 days together we opened the door to the inter course stage and found it to be be very satisfying. Here's the difficulty . On the nights we are together the energy between us is very strong and we can be up for hours making love without ejaculation. Trouble is it's gets to the point where her kids will be in soon and we have barely slept . A couple of times this has led to agreeing to orgasm to induce some sleep. This brings up uneasiness for at least a week.
A few times we have fallen asleep in close cuddles and it's felt sweet but more often we can be awake until the early hours enjoying each other . But then tired the next day. Only having short time together makes it harder I know and we are looking at changing this but in the meantime it would be nice to have the intimacy and sleep together .
Anyone else had similar experience?

You might try

making love in "waves" with longer periods of stillness in between them. This might help train your body to experience the stillness phases as acceptable. Right now, it sounds like you're still trying to "get somewhere."

That said, I think it can be very challenging to make karezza work when you don't have nightly contact. You get "hungry" when you're apart, which makes you more "greedy" when you're together.

On the other hand, there are worse things than being tired. Smile

Hi Again,

Hi Again,

I shared your reply with my partner. She and I were a little unsure what you actually met by making love in waves with periods of stillness . Can you say more about that. Also is there anything you could suggest with this approach that could make the time apart a little easier. The separations seems to bringing up some real uneasiness in me.

I mean

that you might try interspersing active (but still rather tame) movement periods with periods of lying still with genitals connected, so your systems get used to "powering down" between active phases. (Incidentally, many people find the periods of stillness are the most ecstatic as their systems grow more attuned to the subtle feelings.)

As for the days after lovemaking, if you are very anxious it can mean you were too aroused during sex (or climaxed). Read this: Do You Need A Chaser After Sex?

Anything that helps balance brain chemistry should easy those cravings and anxiety. The things that usually help the most are Energy Circulation Practices, meditation, daily exercise, time in nature, socializing and/or daily cold showers: Cold Shower Therapy Guide. You might experiment with some of those and let us know how it goes.

Thanks. When you say keep

Thanks. When you say keep genitals connected you mean inside or outside?
Today is the 14 th day since our last orgasm. We both have felt a shift and sense of well being between us returning. I sense this quite strongly that this period after is quite a process of rebalancing. Sometimes though I wonder if this is a reality that I experience as orgasm intensifies my emotions and brings up residual unresolved feelings of fear and anger around intimacy. I'm Jewish and I have heard rabbis talking of how sex and ejaculation and the loss of seed with within marriage is not sinful but a sacred act of giving and the closest we can know of how it is to give fully of ourselves to another.
Also osho talks about peak orgasm and valley orgasm and doesn't talk of non ejaculation.
So occasionally I wonder wether it is my own sensitivities rather than ejacukation which causes the uneasiness after orgasm. Wondered your thoughts on this?

I was thinking of

"inside," but either would be fine. Are you familiar with "scissors" and "bridge" positions? They're good for resting. Here's "scissors."

Actually Osho taught that "orgasm wasn't necessary." He taught a lot about tantra. Here's a quote:

There are two parts to the sex act - the beginning and the end. Remain with the beginning. The beginning part is more relaxed, warm…..Forget the end completely…..Do not seek ejaculation; forget it completely.

You might find this article interesting:

I'll answer your other question in a separate post.

Thoughts on mankind's beliefs about orgasm

It's very cool that you're Jewish and experimenting with these ideas. The Jews, like the ancient Chinese Daoists, were true scientists and very observant. So called "kosher sex" returns partners to each other after a roughly two-week separation precisely at the ideal time to conceive. At that link, you will see that proponents also claim that the practice has health and psychological benefits. However, without the recent research that is starting to reveal the neurochemical cycle after climax, it wasn't evident why this break was beneficial.

The ancient Chinese Daoists weren't as obsessed with procreation, but also taught that sex was extremely beneficial. Observing that sex without climax "nourished the brain and that too much climax both depleted the brain and increased cravings for sex," they advised that when procreation wasn't desired it was best to have sex calmly without orgasm, or with infrequent orgasm (according to various schedules).

Having experimented, I find the Daoist approach works best. In fact, karezza is an especially non-driven approach to sex. Admittedly, it can be tough to give up that desire to surrender oneself (and trigger a partner's surrender), but for me, the relationship drama that (days later) accompanied those marvelous surrenders was not worth their cost. I'm convinced that the neurochemical fluctuations that follow big orgasmic build-ups and/or climaxes create a subsequent, subtle sense of lack that then (too often) shows up in such ugly emotions as irritability, feeling deprived, feeling superior, greed, victimhood, dissatisfaction, apathy, etc.

But what really matters is your experience...and your sensitivities. Brains are different, so no one set of rules for something that affects our neurochemistry (potentially profoundly, if temporarily) will work the same for us all. (Think PMS in women.)

Sadly, our doctors and psychologists have tried to convince us that if we're sensitive to orgasm we "must have deep psychological issues." I'll go on record as saying that this view will turn out to be bunkum (and studies on women already support my view). Let me add that people can certainly have deep psychological issues around sex, and they will need counseling help. But there is also an unexamined, largely denied, biological reality related to the neurochemical cycle of orgasm.

Eventually people will set their preconceptions aside and figure all this out. The number of studies already showing evidence of a neurochemical "hangover" (at least in terms of measurable neurochemical changes that linger) is surprisingly large, although many are rat studies. So once experts look at this with the implications for ideal sexual balance in mind, things may turn around surprisingly quickly.

Incidentally, you might find this article interesting, even though it's about the Catholic "take" on the requirement to ejaculate during sex: What Can Chimps Teach the Church About Sex? (Other primates don't ejaculate every time they engage in sexual activity, so why do we think we evolved to? When monkeys are not "feeling it," they don't turn to sexual fantasy or put porn on the TV in the mistaken belief that getting off, or getting their partner off, is more important than respecting their biological limitations, they just wait for the next occasion.)

To end up at the Jewish position (of finding religious authority to compel complete surrender in the form of pregnancy-promoting ejaculation) they took a statement by Jesus (whom they still believe was celibate, of course, and who taught nothing encouraging procreation whatsoever) completely out of context (in my view). Here's what a Catholic expert said in the comments:

Jesus's teaching is that one enters the Kingdom of Heaven by giving oneself to others without holding anything back. You can see hints of this in Philippians 2.7 (Jesus "emptied himself, taking the form of a slave")

How likely was Jesus to have been modeling sexual behavior there? Quite a stretch.

But lest you think I'm being snide, I'm not. We've all been very ignorant about human sexuality for a long time (with the exceptions mentioned above worked out by some of the planet's finest early scientists), and our prejudices are so strong that they blind most of us completely when it comes to the need to conclude sex with orgasm.

"...I'm Jewish and I have

"...I'm Jewish and I have heard rabbis talking of how sex and ejaculation and the loss of seed with within marriage is not sinful but a sacred act of giving and the closest we can know of how it is to give fully of ourselves to another..."

We Roman Catholics are taught the same thing. And, we are taught that it is a no-no to deliberately withhold ejaculating.

But, now that I have closely examined my R.C. tenets, I no longer attend church and no longer believe the church's teachings. I say this after having attended Mass weekly for 40+ years, being married in the church, and having raised two children through Confirmation in the church.

I honestly believe that an evil cabal runs much of the world, including the Roman Catholic church. And, with that, many of the teachings of the original, universal religion -- and what Jesus truly may have taught 2,000 years ago -- have been hidden from us, deliberately. One of those teachings, it appears, is 'regenerative sex' vs. 'procreative sex.' Karezza is 'regenerative sex,' in the spirit of the Gnostic Christian 'Sacrament of the Bridal Chamber' and similar practices taught in other religious and spiritual traditions.

So, now, I happily search for truth on my own, outside of the diktats of modern religions (I think they are all deliberately corrupted) and what we were taught in school and are 'taught' by the mainstream media, medicine, etc. The world makes much more sense, now, and I am much more happy and balanced, now.

Just food for thought, s-m-98!

Thanks for your responses. I

Thanks for your responses. I found it helpful and useful.
Read a book recently called the multi orgasmic by mantak chia.
Wondered what your thoughts were on this approach. I thought it was interesting but didn't get a great feeling reading it and thought it seemed quite a forceful approach although I could see how how it shared some similarities to peace between the sheets?

One of Chia's earlier books

was my introduction to these ideas (and I was flabbergasted at the time Wink ). I ultimately found that forceful techniques that produce very high arousal are risky because it's high dopamine that can produce the most uncomfortable neurochemical aftermath.

But, again, experiment and find what works for you. Just be sure you judge the outcome by the harmony of your relationship over time, too, and not just the intensity of your sexual experiments. At the end of the day, wellbeing is more closely tied to thriving intimacy than number of orgasms or intensity of experience. Find the ideal schedule for you, and if orgasm isn't happening, don't force it. Just enjoy the other aspects of your encounter and trust that you're both gaining from the intimate experience itself. Within moments afterward, you'll feel fine, as long as your choice was voluntary.

Here's an article I wrote explaining why I started with Chia, but ended up with karezza. Incidentally, Chia divorced his wife and hooked up with a young girl in the village. So I'm guessing maybe all those intense experiences left him feeling a subconscious sense of lack rather than wholeness.

Partners hangovers

My girlfriend was wondering if I have an orgasm and she doesnt will she still expetiwnce the hangover ftom mine. My sense is that the relationship gets effected and her being part of that natuarally would but maybe to a lesser degree tgan if she had also. Wondered what your thoughts were on this.
Also great recommendation for the Diana richardson books on tantra. Very very

I've also always found

that if either partner orgasms both are somewhat affected. No one knows if that's energetic, or, as you say, due to changes in the partner who actually climaxed. "It's a mystery."

Glad you liked the Richardson books. You're quite the bold explorer(s)!

Thanks Marnia,

Thanks Marnia,

Bold perhaps, there is an element of that.
Our situation is tricky due to only being together 3 nights a week sometimes 2 occasionally more.
We would like to be living together and start the book from the beginning but in the meantime we have been navigating through on the best way we can find.
Having gone 2 weeks without orgasm we started ontercourse and with a lot of stillness we could make love for a few hours at a time and sometimes fall asleep together inside each other. After 2 weeks of this I think we both felt like our connection was really deepening and awareness of subtle sensations was increasing. However as we laying naked together (which we hadnt done that much) a wave of arousal just came on very strong and I had an orgasm. We were only just lying there not having intercourse.
After that we were apart 5 days and despite the orgasm I felt ok(although I got a speeding ticket during the week.. mmmm) but I felt a heart connection to my partnerstill.
When we got together again we decided not to do the 2 week wait and had intercourse, again for a few hours very slowly. Then as I pulled out I had the same wave of arousal and sudden heat in my genitals and had another orgasm.
The next couple of days were not so easy, we were not so in sync with each other.
We made love again 2 nights later for a couple of hours, ot required a lot of awareness and stillness but was ok. My partner wanted to continue and fall asleep like this but I wanted to stop and have the experience of making love without another orgasm. Again there was a feeling of not being in tune but all the time we are communicating. The next night again start to make love but it waant flowing. O could only enter with soft entry and she was feeling bored with the stillness not feeling anything was happening.
Anyway we slept but I couldnt sleep and felt over stimulated and endes up without even touching myself having another orgasm.

So now apart for 5 days im defintely feeling the hangovee effect. I felt that the intimacy was bringing up a lot for us both and a lot of unresolved emotion which waa blocking the easy heart connection and perhaps driving the sexual tension release. So im working with it and trying to remain calm feeling it to be part of a healing process but its very hard.
My partner is reluctant to return to the nuturing phase"what if after 2 weeks you have another orgasm and we have to keep srarting again" she says
Although she recognises that not taking 2 weeks intially probably didnt help.
Wondered what suggestions you may have given our certain circumstances. Conscious of pattern in me of wanting to please and this is part of the emotional landscape that im walking through.

So yes bold.but right now just a little tender and fearful.

I could have written that post myself...

many times. It's so painful once you've tasted the potential, but be gentle with yourselves and keep a sense of humor. This is a major shift for your bodies and brains so try to stay a little detached from the process, and as loving as possible to each other.

Men often feel the most "fall out" during the first week, so maybe try cutting back your "exchanges" to a week (from 2) before adding intercourse in again. Alternatively, just do 7 days of connecting and lying still - even though it is as boring as watching paint dry at first. Smile Just treat it as a meditation. I think that you will see the wonderful feelings return within a week, and certainly by the end of two.

It's like walking through The Void.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Maybe im looking for a

Maybe im looking for a textbook answer and the whole idea is to find our own way what works best for us, but im confused about your suggestion. Are you saying that intercourse without motion is an alternative option after an orgasm to beginning the nurturing exchanges again? Because we kinda did thar albeit changing positions a few times duting a span of a few hours and I had another orgasm and then another 3 days later which prompted the imitial questiom about is best to wait the full 2 weeks.


I'm not in your shoes, so I can't give you a specific plan. But I, too, think it will get easier, and I don't want you to worry too much about "the perfect recipe." You can start with non-intercourse exchanges, and when you feel less "explosive" move into still intercourse.

Orgasms sometimes everyone who plays around with this. But they get fewer as your body adjusts.

My opinion

I think you did very well as a beginner in karezza. Making love for few hours and sleeping while connected mean that you have incorporated stillness in your lovemaking. But are you feeling relaxed and contended when you do that? I think the key idea is to focus on intimacy and love that you feel for each other. Try to comfort each other and avoid getting too much sexual aroused. How much you move when you are in motion? Stillness is best but you can enjoy gyration and rocking motion and should avoid vigorous fast in-out movements. Try to stay around 50-60% state where 100% means orgasm. I think in this way you can make love for hours without having orgasms at the end.

At beginning you will experience unexpected orgasms or horny feeling which will go way soon. Your body needs sometime to get adjusted and eventually it will.

It is not required that you must have orgasm but you can have if you are going to get apart for few days. From my experience hangover effect will be noticeable if you are into frequent orgasm. If you have karezza love making for 2-3 weeks like I stated and then go for orgasm, I think you don't feel that hangover much and can make love in the same way when you meet again. I think Marnia is trying to say something like that.

One of the most beautiful thing is that karezza will make you both so synced and sensitive to each other down there that you can deeply experience how does it feel when your lover have orgasm. It will make you both to have orgasm almost together. This is the one beautiful gift we have from karezza.