how to bring up The Exchanges w/o meeting resistance

Submitted by hayduke on
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When Kat and I first got romantically and physically involved (Kat being the girl I've been seeing here at school), I was withholding orgasm for myself, and let her choose for herself wheter or not to have them.

after a few weeks of that, I eventually lost control of myself, and had my first orgasm in over 2 months. Since my voluntary abstinence was breeched, we continued seeking orgasm for about a week. that was when it all fell apart. Knowing what i've learned from this site, i tried to not let my frustration and sudden annoyance with Kat get to me. We were both pretty shrewd to eachother. I said that i needed to abstain, and suggested we do that together. She was open to it.

I had Marnia email me the exchanges and began reading through them, but when I brought it up to Kat, she didn't like the idea. I think the idea of starting a "program" wasn't very exciting to her. There are a number of different people here who seem to want the exchanges, but run into this block.

How can this be avoided?

secret exchanges

I just started this thread to kick off a discussion.

My first thought for why a partner would not want to try karezza is because it may seem quite un-romantic. I mean, don't women want to be swept off thier feet like princesses? Don't men want to be smooth and spontaneous Don Juans? I feel like the idea of having a manual for affection takes away the mystery and excitment of courting. I think this is why when I talked about non-orgasmic love-making, Kat was open - but when I talked about the exchanges, she said no way.

So, should a Don Juan go about the exchanges slyly? resisting intercourse, but being generous with cuddling, footsies, holding-hands, light kisses, and back massages - then having a conversation after the fact?

I still see Kat from time to time, but its not exactly working out. I hate to say its complicated, but yeah...
save that for another post.


Maybe the actual book will make the job easier. I hope so. If people knew what they were really up against, I think there'd be a bit less resistance. Did she watch the slide show?

Of course, the Exchanges were invented *because* I kept slipping off the rails doing the "princess-Don Juan" thing. Wink In other words, maybe there are no shortcuts, and we all just have to make messes for a while before we find our own way.:-)

Or maybe some of you will have creative solutions that I haven't thought of yet! I'll be watching this thread with great interest.

My sense is that the

My sense is that the information presented here has value and can be lived without the person you are dating even knowing - so long as you are not having sex. When you first meet someone, the bonding behaviors come more naturally anyway, but then quickly get overlooked as the heat gets turned up and the focus changes to sex. I think the best way to approach this is not to share the philosophy and "program" right away with someone you're newly dating, but rather to make a point of abstaining from sex alltogether until you've seen whether there are other areas that you're compatible, ie, whether you even want to be partners with them - because I don't really think this approach can work well in any other situation than a partnership (as far as nonorgasmic sex goes), unless both people happen to have already been introduced to the idea beforehand already and are on board. Otherwise, its just too strange to introduce into a new relationship right away. Even then, I think that it would be better to introduce this by creating an experiential situation first, and leave the philosophy and elaborate explanations for later. Like, try having sex where you just remain totally still and present for the first time and when the other person starts to try to amp it up, let them know that you'd just like to enjoy being connected in their presence, then stop making love. That way they will be introduced to it in practice, ideally a number of times before the whole concept behind it is explained.

Otherwise it does feel prescribed.

I mostly agree with HS

It seems like having sex so early in a relationship causes a lot of problems for people. In my own philosophy, it doesn't seem like a good idea to be that physically close to someone if you don't feel you can safely talk to them about anything. So you can gradually broach the topic in some way as you begin to trust each other more. In my opinion, if someone doesn't listen or reacts dismissively to sincere sharing, they are not going to be a good partner for you anyway. If you don't think you can explain yourself well about it, then there are lots of materials here you can use.

To summarize: Take it slow, and if she's not at all open to the idea, you can move on *before* having sex with her. It'll be easier on you both.

Curious Fellow

Suggested that couples who want to try a "test drive" of intercourse without orgasm do so in the partners won't be as concerned about getting to sleep afterward. That way, they can observe how they feel during the day.

My experience suggests that however pleasant the experience, it is not likely to be "earth-shattering" the first time you try it. Therefore it doesn't really teach anyone why orgasm wouldn't be an "improvement" on such a practice. In other words, it doesn't show you how the passion cycle eventually catches up with you.

Still his suggestion might be a good refinement on Hotspring's plan.

Hopefully once the concept is better known, the idea won't seem so weird.

My first idea has always been

to offer Marnia and Gary a free round-trip ticket to come to my house and provide a Powerpoint presentation on karezza to anyone I might find willing to listen. :) Short of that, a decent effort to try and explain the reasons why this approach is beneficial and appealing seems like a good idea. While I don't think the ideas need to be brought up immediately upon meeting someone, I do feel that the ability to communicate openly and honestly with someone should come before sexual intimacy. There is an intellectual side to this practice as well, and I, too, believe it is important that one understands the reasoning behind my decision to follow this path.

I think that I would be willing to experiment with someone who was open to the idea of non-orgasmic sex, and possibly put off a "program" like the exchanges, in order to test the waters. I think J.W. Lloyd's short book here has some good exercises that are concise and right to the point. I think it would be good for those who are uncertain, or perhaps terrified, about giving up orgasm to find out that life and pleasure do actually exist without conventional sex, and possibly a dry run would ease the mind... pun intended.

Of course, what the hell do I know? I've been here almost five years with very little successful experience. I guess my knowledge comes mostly from failures, but from what I've been told, this can be just as good. :)