New Relationships / Honeymoon Phase / Swans?

Submitted by Quizure on
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You've said that avoiding orgasm can be very difficult/challenging if one is in a new relationship, ie: the honeymoon phase. Can you elaborate on why this is the case? Are there other hormones which you haven't found a way to 'mitigate' the effects of yet, so that the drive for orgasmic sex isn't able to be easily stilled, or is there some protective effect that mitigates or lessens the negative effects of orgasm?

I ask because my partner and I are not experiencing any obvious post orgasm negative effects, and we're finding it somewhat difficult to avoid orgasm entirely. We honestly feel as much in love as we did 12 years ago on our first Vegas "honeymoon" trip. ( We are not legally married, and that trip didn't occur until we had been together for a number of years.) We work together every day, we commute together and work in the same department. We cook together and eat all our meals together unless one of us has to be away from the office for a meeting or training. (Which has been limited to a handful of days over the course of the last 12 years.) We always go to bed together and get up together.

Since first reading about your book, we adjusted our behaviors to include at least one hour of snuggling or bonding activities every day, even if it is just snuggling up and going back to sleep in the mornings - which is about twice much as was normal for us (the morning time usually didn't happen on weekdays). On the days we did Karezza or had orgasmic sex, the time together in skin to skin contact more than tripled from our normal amount of skin to skin contact.

Oddly enough, over the last two years, I'd kept track of when we made love - but only because I was also tracking all kinds of other things in my life - what I ate, how I slept, when I got my periods, how I felt physically, when I had hot flashes, days off, etc, as I was trying to eliminate some annoying IBS flareups, some insomnia issues and to better track my cycles as I approach menopause. You'll find it amusing that I chose to note the love making events in my notebook by drawing a heart with an arrow through it! (But nothing else) Now I have to use codes so that I know what happened, and when: BB, PIVBB (Karezza), PIVOGS (accidental or intentional) and note how many days since each of us last had an orgasm, and now I put in notes to help me know what to try more of . . . so now I need a bigger Moleskine!

I'll keep noting things as we go along. At this point, we're approaching each love making event freely, although we are keeping sex to no more often than every three days and approaching it without an intention of orgasm, although if one happens, it happens. It's certainly gotten easier to tell when we're getting overly aroused, and we've found things that feel amazing, but which are not orgasm triggers. I can't believe I didn't know that the insides of my wrists were so sensitive!


Your relationship sounds

Your relationship sounds beautiful!

And *both* of you are together in this thing we call life and it sounds like you share everything, including the desire to try something new to keep your relationship thriving.

The open communication you have is the key to everything, in my opinion. Especially when it comes to sex.

And I love your tracking skills--you sound like me (a little bit of OCDness is good sometimes!).

Thanks for sharing your progress~



I'm not so much OCD as a database & fancy graph kind of person. (I work in IT as a Systems Analyst) I really wish I had kept more detailed records over the last two years that I was casually noting things, but in general, there wasn't any non-orgasmic sex. I ordered the full-page for each day Moleskine from Amazon today.

We are very lucky to be able to spend so much time together, and get to collaborate on projects at work. I think sharing our work gives us an edge, we both have our strong and weak areas, and we complement one another. . But I don't think anyone's studying that!


"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp



I wonder if for some people it is much easier to give their mates all the affection, sex, intimacy, and pleasure on a consistent basis so that the fallout from orgasm doesn't really show itself in any surprising way.

How many times a week do you and your mate experience orgasm? Together orgasms vs. solo orgasms?

Do you all have any children that take time away from each other?

What tends to be the impetus for sex? Is it more a desire or an act of the will, in order for it to begin? For instance, is sex a scheduled event or do you all leave it up to the "spirit of the moment."?

You both work together? In the same office atmosphere?

It is a great and wonderful thing to have someone who pleases you so much. Also, it sounds as if you are comfortable allowing you mate to please sexually on a consistent basis. I find the allowance of pleasure to actually be the sticking point in relationships.

I often think that if more people simply focussed on their mates, and if more people would simply allow themselves to feel more pleasure from their loved ones, things in relationships would be so much easier.

Giving pleasure is one thing; allowing another to please you is another.

I generally think we all need to have sex more. I just don't know why it is not a priority for most people; well, it seems to be that it is not.

Currently, we're

Currently, we're 'scheduling' karezza-sex every three days, at a minimum. I'm the time keeper, in terms of saying "We're having sex tonight". But we're not restricting ourselves to three days in between, if the spirit calls us. The difference from before is that there is no intent to 'go for orgasm' - in fact, it's just the opposite - we're trying different positions, and discovering what allows us to stay still (or closer to still) more easily, and which is not a quick-path to the point of no return for either of us, but allows us to move the feelings of arousal away from orgasm. It's hard to describe (at least at this point in my experience) but I can only describe it as 'full body tingling' that comes in gentle waves, but is *not* a part of orgasm.

Prior to starting the karezza experiments in April, orgasm was always together, and at least once a month, with a high of 6 times in a month. (In the last 2 years I was tracking, that is.)

Well, until May that is. I just recounted May, and we had sex 17 times, and one or both of us came during 8 of those times. So we're actually doing better than I thought, Karezza-wise.

Yes, both together, in the same office, in the same department.

We do many things to please each other, outside of bed - I cook his favorite foods, he surprises me with things he finds on ebay, we surprise each other with little gifts, or just doing things for each other. About every two weeks we do a date-night. Nothing fancy, just some finger foods and cocktails in a dark bar filled with other couples out on dates.

My children are grown, on their own, and are from a previous marriage. My relationship with my partner overlaped my marriage, and we all tried to make a go of polyamory. I was a dismal failure at it, although I made a few friends in the local community that have remained friends even though we're not all "sleeping" together anymore. The thing I miss from the polyamory days is the puppy piles. No sex, just snuggling with a group of like minded half naked folks. What I really didn't like was the 'wife swapping' atmosphere, and the perfume & patchouli, and ultimately, the drama, and my own insecurity.

I have thought about how hard it must be for people who work 'on the road' - away from their partners for weeks at a time - it's hard to grow together when you spend all your time growing apart from one another. (Tipper and Al Gore come to mind.)


"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp

Thanks for answering my

Thanks for answering my questions.

I surely agree that Karazza generally results in more sex which is so very beneficial to our relationships and our general welbeing.

Also, I think your correct in focusing the intention away from the orgasm, but, if orgasm occurs, to be gracious about it.

Take care.


Hi Quizure. What was the greatest number of days that your husband went without ejaculating, and how big was the ejaculate when it came out? I practice Karezza also so that I can build an ejaculate load big enough to impress my partner when it happens.

2 answers and a comment

For the first question, maybe 40-45 days? I'm not sure, as I've not done calculated the tallies recently. As for the second question, I wouldn't have any idea, and the volume would be of no concern what so ever.

Most people practicing Karezza are doing it to increase the amount of blissful love and harmony in their relationships.


Is it possible

you've been watching too much Internet porn? Wink I know of no women who care about ejaculate volume. It just makes a bigger wet spot if there's more of it.

How did you get the idea your partner will be impressed?

Thanks, Quiz

Maybe you *are* swans. Smile

Just curious, have you tracked your health issues with extended periods of karezza? The Daoists used non-orgasmic intercourse as a healing intervention for lots of different diseases.

We haven't been together 25

We haven't been together 25 years - I think that was how long they'd been together in Helen Fisher's testing.

I've cured the IBS by removing a few trigger food items from my diet, namely mozzarella cheese, and artificially sweetened gum, which turned out to be the worst trigger. The pre-menopause symptoms are *gone* this month. No hot flashes, and I'm not waking up too early. I was regularly waking up at 2 or 3 am, and not being able to go back to sleep. I take my blood pressure twice a day, and its been lower this month by about 5 points.


"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp

Is writing a book

A good way to make a living, because if I was writing a book, I don't think I'd have time for my day job. Wink

"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp

Speaking as one who writes fiction

You could make a living, but it isn't easy by any stretch. The authors who can make a living at it, who aren't famous or get on the NY Times best seller list, usually put out several books a year.

Even if you wrote a book that took off, and you started writing today, you're not likely to see much money from that for a couple of years down the road at the earliest, unless you took shortcuts which tend to reduce your chances of it becoming a hot seller.

I have two books published so far, fantasy, and I've barely broke even. Non-fiction tends to sell better than fiction, but you have to have some sense of authority of the subject to get noticed in *most* cases. Just relating your experiences, however, makes you an immediate "expert" with some topics, for example, someone who has gone through caring for a bi-polar child could write their experiences on doing that, what didn't work, what did. That's the same sort of thing Marnia has done, with Gary's knowledge and the research both have done on it, but what you read in the book in large part is her telling what she discovered that made the difference in her relationships, then providing the supporting science behind it.

But it is a very rare thing to write a book, having it turn out to be a best seller, making a boat load of money off of it, and live on it. Most authors have to write several books a year, unless they have an alternate form of income. So, yeah, don't quit your day job anytime soon. At least not until your title does hit the best seller's list. Then you can think about it. :)

This is good to hear,

As it gives me hope for my July experiment to turn out for the positive. After abstaining for June, I'm only going to have sex and orgasm with my wife, no masturbation, for all of July. In part because I want to find out if I don't masturbate, but have sex with her around once a week or less, will I experience less or no post-orgasm crash. It sounds at least you your case, that is true.

Will you be including daily bonding activities

during the other days/nights of the week? If I had to choose between one or the other - bonding - cuddling, kissing & spooning or one night a week of sex - I would choose the bonding activities. I'm positive this is where I am getting the most benefit, because it's where I can stay calm enough to be able to tell when I am feeling 'needy' (which I want to avoid) and when I am feeling giving and more able to stay in the moment, which is what I want to cultivate. During sex, when the goal is orgasm, I find it's really easy to lose the heartfelt awareness of my partner in the pull towards orgasm. But I also think some orgasm "edging" has it's value in helping us to know where to slow down during Karezza, to get the most benefit from it.

This reminds me - we bought an inexpensive slide-dimmer at IKEA for the bedside lamp - eye contact is very important to me, so I wanted to be able to see my partner (I need to give him a name!) but wanted the light to be very soft like moonlight. With the dimmer we can get it low enough that it's less distracting than a candle, and more like an autumn moonlight.


"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp

We already do

Already today, even though we've had little time, both of us being gone most of the day, I've already kissed her. We hug on occasion, I kiss her in the living room in front of the boys (they need to know we love each other too). We talk, etc. Sometimes not as much and as often as we should. I'm not saying we're perfect, but we do try to have as much contact as possible.

Then when we do go for sex, usually we'll first hug and be in each other's arms. Sometimes we'll start off by talking about something, especially if it on her mind, that way she can clear it out of the way. We'll kiss, caress each other, gradually move to foreplay, first with the breast, then along her hips, up her legs and...well, you know the rest. We'll hold each other, and I'll give her an orgasm with my hand, usually (because she never has been able to get there from penetration alone) while she strokes me. Then we'll move to intercourse.

So I would say both lots of non-sexual and sexual bonding is going on. And I try to do more things too, like at night before she goes to bed, give her a back rub (she loves that).

But to this point, I've always also masturbated nearly every day. We usually have sex once a week or less, and within a month probably no more than three times being usually her period prevents it on one of those weeks. Sometimes it is only once or twice a month.

So in July, what I'm wanting to find out is really two things. One, if avoiding masturbation which doesn't create any oxytocin since there is no bonding with another that is going on, actually causes more of a crash than sex with my wife does, were we get plenty of that bonding.

And two, though I haven't told her this yet because if she knows it would likely mess up the results, I want to find out how it affects her. Will she intuitively sense something and want sex more frequently herself? I'm interested to see what her response to me will be. I should be able to determine that to some degree this month as we go, but she knows she can't have me this month, so she's not likely to show it. But next month, when the only sex I'll get is from her, it will be interesting to see how frequently she'll actually want it. I told her that she shouldn't try to have sex more frequently, or feel obligated to do so because I'm not masturbating to orgasm. Just whenever she wants it and is available, like normal, that's when we'll do it. Taking into account her period cycles, if I find she seems more desirous, that could be a good sign.

That said, I'm beginning to sense that the closest together a man should normally have an orgasm to ejaculation is once a week. That seems to be the biological clock the body is on. Any sooner than that and you're swimming upstream to get there, and risking returning to a more addictive behavior mode. So I'm hoping my experiment shows in July that our bonding behaviors create enough offset to the dopamine crash, and since her cycle doesn't seem to be more than once a week, we might find a good balance if I can simply not masturbate to ejaculation/orgasm other than with her.

That's the goal I'm shooting for, and then later adding in more karezza type activities as she becomes comfortable with it.


I love how we're all doing our own experiments here, and finding what works for ourselves and our partners, and we get a safe place to compare notes! And of course, Marnia gets a 'live testing pool' . . . no government funding needed.

It's also very interesting to see how people, usually under the science of a belief system handed down over time would find that similar solutions worked, but by necessity, due to a lack of fMRI machines, and controlled hormonal studies, created systems of beliefs and rules which helped people live more productive and happy lives.


Right now, you're as young as you'll ever be. Enjoy your youth!


It would be lovely, wouldn't it, if we had a "scientific" set up and could all match our results. But we all have different backgrounds, different partners and all kinds of other variables which refuse to stay put while we experiment in this one area.

Yet, I find this exploration exciting. There are times when everything clicks and then there are times when it doesn't. One thing that has got consistently better as I have been experimenting is communication. We, my wife and I, are better at talking about what's going on inside. That alone is worth the price of admission.