What is the goal? (old thread)

Submitted by Lolita on
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I am curious, as to what the ideal goal is? I've heard it said here that giving up orgasm forever is not the goal and then others say that it is the goal. There has been much speculation as to time periods to abstain, 100 days a year, 40 days, a month, never.

I realize that finding ones personal balance here is the aim, but what exactly is that? I agree that periods of orgasm avoidance open up wonderful new doors for feeling, but the orgasm has its place too. Somewhere I read a description as orgasm being a state where "every cell in the body is bathed in positive energy." I think it was in the Kama Sutra. I don't think we are meant to resist this forever, or even to any extreme degree.

I also think that if one focuses on simply feeling the sensations in one's body and the pleasure from their touch (or another person's) that not only will the experience be more positive and rewarding than focusing on something outside (such as porn), but also is far more erotic. Clearing the mind is hard to do, and doing it while focusing on sexual sensations is, to me, a very spiritual place to be.

Another thing I see a lot of here is this post-orgasmic illness or hangover associated with orgasm. Although Marnia has done a thorough job of describing the brain chemical activity before and after orgasm, observation of humanity shows we are far more complex than what science can explain. My acupuncturist was explaining to me, how women in the Hopi Indian community experience none of the symptoms of menopause. Now menopause can be explained by science with very real data showing hormonal changes, physical changes, a cessation of the menses, (which the Hopi women go through too) but they exhibit none of the negative effects western women experience. She explained to me how in the Hopi culture, older women are revered as elders and this time period in their lives signifies a new rise in status.

So I wonder how much of these negative after effects are really cultural. It would seem that all of our non-pathogen afflictions really do start in the attitudes and values of ourselves and the environment around us. I do believe masturbation and intercourse to be a deeply spiritual kind of meditation and orgasm is a flow of healing energy throughout the body. While I do agree that porn does not fit in with this pleasurable function and abstinence should be indulged in at least periodically, the idea that the orgasm is harmful and should be completely avoided, seems very wrong.

I am not sure about some of

I am not sure about some of the goals any more. I do know a couple goals. One is to be done with porn. I am sure I am done with it now. So that is one goal made. I still need to be a little careful of it though. No more need to "test".
Another goal is to have a relationship/partner. I have never had either so it is a very big goal for me.

About Masturbation and Orgasm. MMM not sure. I have done well with not using porn or fantasy and just focusing on the feelings. I try to keep all images out of my head when I do M and O. I have been able to do this for the most part. Some times images will appear and I stop till I am in control again and have no images in my head. The fantasy is the real key though. keeping that out.

So I guess I am OK with M and O if done without Porn, Fantasy or images now. I have gone several times over 30 days without O and it just did not seem to improve my outlook on things.

I still do not understand how most of the other guys talk about feeling more comfortable talking to and being around women after a week or two of No porn and M or O.

I was at 5+ months without porn of any kind and over 30 days without M and O. I felt no more ease around women then before all of this. I still felt all the same stuff. I had all the same fears and lack of confidence. I still had all the same mental problems and just eerything.

I will say I believe I was maybe thinking a little more clearly. It just did not equal me being more comfortable socially. I was not able to talk to women other then a couple that contacted me and I have talked to by phone. I would not have contacted them.

So to sum up. I have met my goal with porn, fantasy and Images
I have dealt with M and O and still not sure about how to go with that.
I do not see how to solve my goal of a relationship yet.

I hope this is what you were asking

Be Safe
James

Thanks James

I was more or less asking about the overall goal for orgasm among the users of Marnia's teachings. Is it to be once a week, month, year, never? What you shared was far beyond what I was asking, but I appreciate your willingness to share and discuss.

Congratulations on your success in getting rid of porn. It sounds like you are doing what I (and others have) recommended above, and that is concentrating on your feeling and being while experiencing sexual pleasure. Personally, I find this very intensely erotic, more so than outside things, images or even fantasies. It makes you be in your body, in the here and now where you can feel the sensation most exquisitely.

You said, "I have gone several times over 30 days without O and it just did not seem to improve my outlook on things."

So I am curious to know if you have found a time frame that works well for you. You said over 30 days did not improve your outlook, at what point is your outlook most improved?
Reading the comments on this site it seems that for most guys 30 days is the point of diminishing value. Females go through a change of the egg available once every month. I'm starting to suspect that men might do well to follow the same schedule.

I really don't think stopping masturbation or orgasm will make relating to the opposite sex any different unless it had posed a hindrance before. Obviously, if someone used to spend all evening masturbating instead of going out to socialize, they may find the change impressive when they start to go out instead. (Of course they'll probably end up spending more money, ending up in awkward situations they would not if they'd stay home, etc.) Everything has its pros and cons.

One thing my mother always told me is love finds you when you're not looking for it. This has always turned out to be a truism in my life. So as far as setting it as a goal...hmm. I don't think denying oneself orgasm in hopes that the sexual desperation will drive them to be more social is really the right way to go about it. You might do well to pursue your own interests. That will also lead you into circles with others of the same interest. It's easier to approach someone when you already know you have something in common.

I wish you the best in all that you seek from life.

female and male cycles

Lolita,

While I can't in any way "prove" it, I feel very strongly that men have a natural cycle and mirrors the females'. Like you noticed, it seems that when men are around fertile women or women with whom they MAY have a chance to "impregnate", then they are on a monthly cycle. I also feel that if the man is around a woman who is either post menopausal OR has emitted some sort of signal that his sperm is not needed or wanted, his cycle increases indefinately. As an example, older couples where the wife has reached menopause the husband probably no longer has a need to ejaculate.

Oh how I wish this were studied!

David

Part of me wonders

if what is going on here (in some cases) is not a form of sexual anorexia. Anorexics avoid food because it gives them a sense of control in a world that seems otherwise completely out of their control. By discipline and will-power they starve themselves as long as they can. It gives a sense of satisfaction that they have resisted the strong urge to eat.

Now those who abstain for a long, long time, will not show the same physical effects as an anorexic. They will not become 60 lb skeletons, but they are denying themselves a beneficial pleasure (that may not be good in heavy doses) but is still essential to the beingness of life.

It is easy to feel confident and proud of oneself for resisting the powerful sexual urge, and often that confidence is well deserved. But abstinence is the other extreme of the same spectrum, and eventually it can become the drug. The benefit one sees to going longer and longer without might just be the satisfaction of achieving such control, and not an intrinsically beneficial thing at all.

Biochemical allergy

When I read Lolita's post above it made me think that maybe she doesn't have the same biochemical reaction to sexual overstimulation that I have.

When I got together with my new partner a couple of months ago, it was after a looooong dry spell. We did not initially have sex, but were sexual. I was filled with energy and vitality and couldn't wait to see him again. Then, after we began having incredible lovemaking, I began to feel absolutely, no-doubt-about-it HUNGOVER! Not being able to drink alcohol anymore for the very same reason (it makes me horribly ill within the first few sips), I googled "sex hangover" and found this site which clearly explained the whole biochemical reason behind my orgasm hangovers.

This is only my first day of learning about what is going on inside the brain when orgasm happens (and afterwards), but the affect this knowledge has had on me is that I now don't feel like a crazy person for wanting to fuck him, then feeling DONE with him, while at the same time strongly suspecting that he's feeling the same things. All that, and then the cycle starts over, missing him, getting to be with him, having a great time, fucking, coming, and then splash down! -The "make-him-go-away" phase.

The thing is, in my heart and in my mind, I love him. I don't want him to go away. This information gives me tools to use in order to keep him.

Having been anorexic in the past, I can say that for ME, the cure was coming to peace with the fact that food is good, not the enemy, that we need it in balanced measure in order to live a life worth living. I think sex must be very similar, that either under or over indulging is NOT balanced, so coming every single time, or multiple times as my current partner is capable of making me do, is bound to be unhealthful, biochemically speaking.

Another point that is refreshing for me to "get" is that the goal of intimacy is INTIMACY. Taking orgasm out of the picture, and replacing it with tender, loving affection takes off a certain amount of pressure, allowing me to BE, rather than feel somehow "less than" if I don't come.

Thanks for sharing your insights

It's probably also true that some brains are particularly sensitive to dopamine highs and lows in general. Since I know you like the science theories we share, I'll point out that some innate sensitivity to dopamine seems to be related to pair bonding. We know this because pair bonding species are more inclined to use drugs and alcohol. In short, the same brain circuitry that makes us sensitive to falling in love makes us sensitive to abusing substances and activities that bump up dopamine.

Or to say this differently: What feels like a "flaw" in today's hypersexual environment may have made our ancestors really successful lovers. Wink Just a thought. For more: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/200911/are-pai...

Yes, finding a balance is the goal. And that balance may be a bit more conservative than today's mainstream sex advice would lead one to believe.

I'm somewhat confused about

I'm somewhat confused about the goal as well. I agree with James that porn and fantasy should be avoided. I think marnia recommends we experiment to find out what works best for us. Orgasm with a partner might be ok if you use bonding behaviors to ease withdrawal symptoms.
for me orgasm causes a bunch of weird after effects- indigestion trouble sleeping mood swings back pain tremendous fatigue( the worst for up to a week after) ... so the fleeting pleasure is really just not worth it atm. might change in the future. i don't know about masturbation it seems to lead to orgasm ... i like the idea of saving myself for a partner. i hope to transmute my sexual energy into creativity through my art

marnia what do you currently find works best for you?

Is that a legitimate link?

I tried clicking on it and somehow lost the website altogether. Then I tried to log on to the website again, and it wouldn't let me. I had to refer back to my "favorites" button on my browser in order to get back into the website.

Funny

Orgasms help me with headaches and menstural cramps. The only downside I've ever experienced to them is eventually I have to "work" a little harder for them, at which point I abstain from orgasms (not stimulation) for awhile and then my sexuality is in full swing again.

I read a thing in the Wiki about a urologist saying to wait for a wet dream, then another wet dream and use that time period as a guideline for when you should orgasm. But that seems wholly impractical as some people never have wet dreams and some have them when they orgasm more frequently instead of when they don't.

These symptoms people here describe are alarming. With most food available in the grocery stores now being genetically modified organisms, the chemical spraying that fills our skies and the toxic environment that surrounds us, it seems that this may be another symptom instead of a cause. Perhaps the toll these pollutants are taking is having an effect that reveals itself after orgasm. Are you organic? Do you avoid chemical products?

wet dreams don't seem to

wet dreams don't seem to cause as severe symptoms but i have lower back pain after having one last night. so ill have to see if i have another on schedule
before i found this website i thought my health problems were caused by toxins or what i ate. now i think they are related or caused by sexual stimulation and orgasm. i've been all natural and organic/ no gmo food, no prescription drugs, or alcohol for at least five years. ive tried tons of supplements and different diets. my symptoms and depression go away when i dont orgasm for awhile. plus i just feel energized and need less sleep.

i guess it depend on the person maybe its different for women considering they don't have to give anything up to reach orgasm.

In what I've expereinced so far

I am slowly getting an idea of what might be ideal, at least for me. Note: I am currently testing Marnia's info for myself, and haven't come to any definite conclusions. Not to say that what she details in her book on the chemical imbalance is off or wrong, but I'm sure individuals will experience these things differently, and one reason I believe she says each of us have to find what works best for us.

So, granted I'm not finished with getting past two weeks without an orgasm yet (I think I have one more week to go before reaching that point, thanks to an orgasm early last Tuesday), I have noticed a few things about myself in the periods and times of abstaining.

One is my sensitivity kicks in sometime on the sixth day of abstaining. So on the surface level, I would say for me just based on what my body is telling me, that it should be no more than once a week.

But, I've experienced something else this past week as well. I did some stimulation (which resulted in the orgasm Tuesday) but except for that one time, didn't orgasm, though I usually came close, and especially early in the week after having not done anything the week before, had some cum ejaculate. But the interesting things is, this more constant level of sexual feeling flowing through my body over most of the week (sort of died down to minimal feeling by Friday, but bumped back up Sat. and Sun until launching back high today), seem to offset the post-orgasmic affects of Tuesday's orgasm. I wondered if even though I had some of the signs that I had slipped past the point of no return, it wasn't the same as when I'd masturbated to orgasm after a week of abstinence previously and experienced a real energy draining time for the next several days (having orgasms each of those days as well). So I wasn't totally sure I'd "gone over." But with the kick up of sexual feeling on day six after that event, now I think I did for sure. So I'm marking that as my last orgasm.

Anyway, to get back to my point (I ramble sometimes), while what I did last week isn't the same as Karezza, in that I don't know that any oxytocin was produced, it was slow going, non-orgasm oriented sexual touching. That's supposed to help make the times you do orgasm on occasion with a partner less crashy. So I might have sex once a week, but I might do karezza a few times in between, keeping those feelings flowing, so when I do have an orgasm, there is little if any crash.

And since my wife isn't real sex crazed, I may just be doing some of that low level stimulation in between. It is enjoyable and I seem to have enough control to avoid orgasm most of the time. And based on this last week and today, the energy levels stay high and I feel overall good, even though I did have that one orgasm.

I too don't see (or want, really) to totally do away with orgasm. I do, however, want to find out what works best for me. And if once a week or more is better because it helps keep the feelings up overall and the spark between me and my wife going, then I'm for it. A few months ago, I would have never considered such a thing. Now I think I could do what I did last week on a regular basis if need be, in order to not drain myself of energy.

I can tell I'm affected today by the upswing in "horniness." I told my wife when she walked into the kitchen, I found myself lusting after her butt. lol. Crazy what these hormones do to a man. But I think she appreciated the comment.

So, I'm thinking no more than once a week in general. In July I'll get to test that more extensively, as I'll avoid orgasm except when I have sex with my wife, which usually turns out to be no more frequently than once a week a the most. So that will be my built in orgasm time, however frequently she's up to doing it. In between, I'll bask in some nice feelings, but avoid orgasm. If that turns out well and I like that, it may be my standard operating procedure from here on out.

Like we say, find out what works best. I think it will be cool if I actually desire that more than what I did before, which was a full-on orgasm/ejaculation at least once a day, if not more.

But for the rest of this month, I'm wanting to avoid any more of that level of stimulation (getting near the edge) so I can know for sure I've reached two weeks, and see what differences I note. I've convinced my mind a time of testing this out is a good thing, and it can wait for a while. So far, I'm learning a lot about my body and feelings, I think. I'll know more as time goes on.

Hi Cole

Thank you for sharing this. Well, your findings seem to fit well with mine. I don't get fallout feelings after orgasm, but I do enjoy the kind of rush I feel from going a time without orgasm. Like you, I find that after a period of abstinence I can orgasm, fully enjoy the pleasure of it, but not diffuse all the energy I have built up, especially if I wait a while before the next one. I've just started tracking my menstural cycles, because it seems that not only am I horniest before my period, but the orgasm has great effects in terms of pain relief at that time. So I'm thinking of trying to work up to a monthly schedule of having them when they are of greatest benefit. I don't intend it to be permanent, but I'm curious to try it for a bit. Though I think a once a week would work plenty well for me too, as it sounds like it would for you.

I also think our needs vary from month to month. We change with the seasons and what may be good one month may not be the next.

As I'm trying to stress to my partner, orgasm is not the goal, making love is. What makes non-orgasm focused sex great is your not focusing on cumming or making anyone cum, but on loving one another. I think worrying about not cumming might be just as bad, so as I told him: If an orgasm happens, yay orgasm! If an orgasm doesn't happen, yay no orgasm! Which I'm happy to say he seems to be getting into now. Wink

Goal oriented sex

Well, personally, I sometimes don't get to orgasm. Actually, frequently, when we have sex. I'd say about 50% of the time. Some times are better than others.

For me personally, I value the time together, and whatever we share I enjoy, orgasm or no orgasm. Naturally I tend to want the orgasm. But I'm okay with it not being there, it is more important that we simply connect and enjoy each other.

But my wife values me having an orgasm more than I do. She sees it as her reward, maybe she feels a sense of accomplishment. When I first started having trouble orgasming, she would feel (or it seemed to me by what she said and how she acted) like the time was wasted if I didn't get there. But in recent years I don't think she thinks that either. While we're not doing the Karezza thing, we both want an orgasm, but are not disappointed I don't get there. She may want it more than I do, however. As she expressed it to me, it feels to her like there was an end to it, a completion.

So it's kind of a balancing act for us. In the past, yes, orgasm was the goal. I don't think it is that way anymore, but that goal is still there in the background, but perhaps now just not the primary goal. Which is a good place to be, I think.

That is lovely

And what I am hopping to cultivate in my own relationship.
I am with a man who I am very in love with, and he with me. There has not been intercourse in awhile because he had a series of surgeries and then I had surgery and now getting back into it is kind of scary. I think taking away orgasm as a goal (but not necessarily orgasm Wink ) is making that easier on us.

So far we are doing more cuddling and light genital touching, but leaving it at that for now. It's really nice because of the bonding and loving, instead of worrying about something.

I also would be very upset if my partner never orgasmed again. I like giving him pleasure and yes, there is a feeling of accomplishment to it. I think the most fun thing about not having an orgasm is how good everything feels when you try again.

Sometimes trying for the orgasm (or penetration even) is a lot like a long road trip with kids asking "Are we there yet?" the whole way.
Thanks for your reply Cole and best wishes to you and your wife.

You said...

[quote=Lolita]Sometimes trying for the orgasm (or penetration even) is a lot like a long road trip with kids asking "Are we there yet?" the whole way.[/quote]

How true! lol.

I'm one of those who likes to enjoy the ride to the destination, sometimes more than actually arriving. But I do like to arrive on occasion as well. :D

Clarification

I've been informed that some of what I've said could be misinterpreted. I never said that the users of this site were sexually anorexic, I was only referring to the fact that sexual anorexia exits and it is the opposite end of the "sexual addiction" spectrum. I do think a very real danger with abstinence for those afflicted is falling into an opposite pattern that is just as destructive. I mean this as a general warning, not an accusation against anyone.

I agree that sexual or

I agree that sexual or emotional anorexia can be a problem. There are a lot of people in SLAA that are anorexic. It seems like anorexia might be the overcompensation of the indulgence, in which case its just another symptom of a deeper issue that prompted us to manage our emotions poorly in the first place with the addiction. In my case, even though anorexia is not the ideal condition for me, its serving a purpose, at least temporarily. Because I am taking this sexual focus out of my life, I can better deal with my underlying shame and focus on things in my life that need to be done. Of course I want a sexual relationship, but for some reason, Im being forced to take a couple of steps back and re-evaluate my approach to my relationships and sex.

Courage is knowing what not to fear.
-Plato

Right

What you are doing is not what I would consider sexual anorexia at all, especially because you realize that you are using this to a purpose and do not intend for it to be permanent. Taking some time out is perfectly healthy. When it escalates to dogmatic rigidity is when problems arise.

Thanks for your post. Congrats on your progress too btw.

Good point.

I have finally found my own personal truth on this journey. It has to be free of ego, or at least a raging one. I have recently had another breakthrough that I will blog about. Meditation daily, maybe twice. This help tremendously. I just want to be at peace. Everything else will come when it does. This does not mean I lack ambition or have high goals. I do. However, I have to lay the right foundation. Abstaining from ejaculation is going to be a tool for me. It is not the magic wand to improve everything, but it can be valuable if used in conjuntion with all the proper ingredients: vigurous exercise, mediation, social activity, etc. My outlook anyway!

Hi t4ytime

For me it seems to be the single most important thing. Higher the ego , higher the feeling of separateness. Higher the separation, higher the craving to be united. So higher the addiction to lust. In my personal case I have found ego and sensual desires to be two sides of the same coin.

The ego is pain and fear. It

The ego is pain and fear. It will use those to get what it wants. What it wants is to keep one locked in pain and fear. If it means keeping you stuck in an addiction then that is what it will push for by using as much pain and fear as it needs.

The goal

should be for all of us to acknowledge the immense power of our sexuality – and develop self awareness of how it can and does affect us as individuals. We all have strengths and limitations in this arena. Realize that how we choose to manage our sexuality affects our interpersonal connection with others and the world. That we should take an active role in this and exploit our strengths and guard our exposure where we are weak. To effect balance in ourselves so we can present our very best to those around us. This gives us the first and best opportunity to create and maintain durable, long lasting, loving relationships with others.

The divorce rate is over 50% in the US and I myself am the offspring of divorced parents. Many of the people I grew up with married and divorced, both of my wife’s sisters have been divorced. For me the goal is to maintain and improve upon the extraordinary relationship I have with my loving wife of over 20 years. I am new to the site but not new to some of the philosophy and practices discussed and promoted here.

I suffer from post-orgasmic illness or hangover and long before I knew of the Coolidge Effect I could see how I began to disconnect from my wife after orgasm and how physically and mentally debilitating it was for me. I really struggled at times to understand how you could be flying high one moment – then lower than low in just a few scant moments post orgasm. This was particularly hard to take because my wife is intensely sexual and multi-orgasmic and her drive is much higher than mine under normal conditions. Investigation of sacred sex and tantra led me to the practice of continence and I have been an avid practitioner for some time now. Foregoing male ejaculatory orgasm provided a huge boost to virtually all aspects of our relationship as I no longer suffer from the negative effects of orgasm and the resulting mood/demeanor changes that cause disconnect. I remain very hungry for my wife and since I no longer have “down” time I am easily able to “provide” whatever “bedroom” services she requires (she is still highly orgasmic). By being active about managing to our strengths and limiting exposure where we are weak we have created a very energetic and vibrant balance that we did not enjoy in the past and it has served us very well. We are very loving and affectionate and our bond continues to grow stronger with each day.

Regards,
Virgil

Always appreciate your words Virgil

My wife and I are really "going for the gold" right now. I am trying to make it until at least our anniversary in late September. After that, I hope to use wet dream intervals as my guide. (and I have had extremely few of them)

Hope you enjoyed your weekend.

Yay!

for more practice
meditated for an hour this AM....got pretty good at cycling energy in through my heart and out through my dick....took some time to get it to cycle. At first I was taking in and throwing out through my perineum. I was able to stop that and bring it down along my spine and up along the front of my body. I came to a place where the inhale through my chest pulled the energy from my penis. The best part was going to my Izzy's bed and spending about 15 minutes snuggling including 10 in the scissors position.
My first goal was to increase my wife's libido....hah!
2nd to stop striving for orgasm
3rd give up porn
4th figure out what the hell karezza is for Izzy and me
5th establish an affectionate relationship with my wife
6th learn tantric meditation and share it with Izzy
7th be a more loving man
peace

What do you see as the

What do you see as the benefit of controlled channeling versus letting the energy circulate in a more random manner? Sometime I let the energy run amok and then worry about reigning it in later. Maybe that is just easier to do at my stage.

Dunno

I'm just checking it out....it's something to do with my head. Left to it's own devices my thinking tends towards worry and pessimism.

Contolled Channeling

Interesting phrase....yes it is a way for me to stay focused. Feelings driving brain.....hmmm. I don't know if I feel energy flow/chaos without applying my intention.
I'm trying to do the energy cycling as proposed by the Richardson's 'cause I want to find another way to be with my wife. This morning, meditating by myself, I felt like such a girl. It's easy for me to feel the energy come into my body either through my heart or perinium (as if I had a pussy) and quite difficult to bring it out through my penis. I think I need to learn this masculine way if I'm going to practice Tantra.
Since the first of the year I've managed to pull off being a loving man. In this state, trying to manipulate my wife's response isn't an issue. No karezza, 2 orgasms, no hangover after the first and not much after the second (my intention was not so pure), but some nice cuddling a couple of 3X's/week.

I imagine that's so

my limp dick doesn't channel much juice. I can run energy without a hard-on, but not so well through my dick. Meditating by myself doesn't get me hard. Channeling the energy, pushing it through there, doesn't either. I've avoided thinking about Izzy (and getting hard) during meditation. My meditation time is about me. BUT if I'm going to do Tantra perhaps it's time to start including the Goddess. I think I've avoided bringing an erection into my meditation because it's too close to the solitary porn use OF MY PAST (I'm proud to say). Perhaps I threw the baby out with the bath water.
BTW I don't have any judgement about being a girl. I love and respect women. It's a challanging puzzle, though, when you have a dick.

What is interesting

It is harder for *me* to breathe like a girl than vice-versa! I naturally want to go the other way, the man's way~~it's a challenge for both sexes, apparently, but perhaps that is the reason it works (you have to go outside your norm to do it)?

rediscovered

Ha!

We're talking about the direction your circle of breathing is supposed to go (it's opposite for male and female)--it's harder for me to breathe in through my genitals and out through my breasts than vice-versa. AC is saying it's harder for him to do the opposite~~

rediscovered

Got it. Energy

Got it. Energy breathing...not air breathing. I haven't tried visualizing this much. I'm concerned (maybe AC is too) that pushing energy out my genitals will somehow lead to orgasm.

I can go both ways easily

(oh, that sounds wrong, doesn't it, but it's true!). . .

Anyway, I disconnected the energy movement from the breathing - I'm a slow breather anyway, I can circulate the energy many times between breaths, even changing directions multiple times during a single breath, if I want. Both directions seem equally comfortable to me since I disconnected from actual breathing as part of the exercise.

Quizure

I was trying

I was trying this during class which was weird. I realized I couldn't stay connected to physically breathing and so started to channel energy separate from breath. I can see a few ways to do this. One could do this while doing pelvic tilt exercises and synchronize the flow so that energy moves incrementally with each breath. Or one might have the energy oppose the breath airflow direction. It can help to visualize a loop where the in/out breath pushes or pulls from the genitals even though disconnected physically.

How have you disconnected the energy flow? Do you just let yourself breath naturally and use your mind to move the energy? Do you do this being still, moving about, something else?

My natural relaxed breathing is slow

A full breath cycle is at least 20 heartbeats, and more than 1/2 of those, I'm neither breathing in nor out. It really feels like I can start it going with either breathing or my mind, and it just circulates on it's own while I'm doing nothing else. Like sending a merry-go-round slowly spinning, and the next breath keeps it going. I learned this while doing our daily 'full frontal snuggling'. My partner breaths faster than I do, so when I was trying to breath in synch with him I would get hyper-ventilated - and I had to pause and wait to 'sync' with another breath, which required too much effort. This way my breathing rate makes no difference - I sych mentally with his rate for the cycling. If I'm feeling really disconnected, or less open hearted, then I pull energy up and hold it, do a kegel lock, and let the breath out, and repeat - pulling energy only up into my heart and letting it expand. It only takes a few cycles to get that relaxed opened hearted glow going.

At first, it felt unnnatural, because I was forcing it. I just kept at it, and like anything, if you practice long enough, it becomes natural feeling.

I also do this any time during the day that I feel tense or stressed, or when I need to stop thinking about the next job I need to do before i've got the one I'm working on finished. Most of my day is spent sitting in front of a computer, unfortunately, so I'm not moving around much.

"Swing open up your chest and let it in, Just let the love, love, love begin." -Ingrid Michaelson

Quizure

Nice Point Q

Of the body rhythms, breath, heart, cranio-sacral, chi,...., breath is the sledge hammer. I found trying (and I tried because I am the ever teacher-pleasing, good student) that the energy would stall waiting for the breath. Disconnecting the two is wisdom, to be sure.
This energy stuff is weird. I can draw in at the heart and posterior to the pubis (perinium, pussy) and direct it out from those places and forward from the pubis quite easily. The connection either way 'tween heart and first chakra, along the spine, is also easy.
Query: If I'm making this all up, parroting instructions from the manual, why can't I connect the two in front, outside of my body? The energy tends to go straight out. Why can't I direct it out through my limp dick? Perhaps a stiff rod is a better conductor than a noodle. I've been reluctant to get myself hard, by resorting to memories of my sexy Isadora, during meditation. Maybe it's time. I'm thinking if I'm going to bring stillness to our sex, parhaps I need to try bringing sex to my meditation. I'll let y'all know.