Understanding this more but still some setbacks...

Submitted by TommyMaddox on
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So I'm starting to have a much better grasp on the role that orgasm plays in relationship but I'm still having some areas where I'm having some difficulty and looking for some perspective.

First, I was able to go almost six weeks without an orgasm and during that time I felt very stable emotionally. During that period I don't think I had intercourse with my partner but once or twice and it was a very gentle form of Karezza when we did. However, in the last month or so I've fallen back into a "typical" frequency (1-2x/week) and with that the moods have become less stable (as Marnia's theory would predict).

I've attempted to do Karezza again but even with Karezza I have an almost impossible time not getting over-stimulated. I can hold off on having an orgasm during sex usually but then I have a feeling of sexual tension that exists until I release through orgasm. This is likely due to the fact that during "Karezza" there is more thrusting/friction then there should be. It feels really good at the time and even feels OK not to orgasm but the build-up in stimulation makes it nearly impossible for me not to seek release at some point.

So basically what I've come to the conclusion is that I can do a "no stimulation" abstinence period from orgasm. That was actually a lot easier than I thought it would be. Or I can do traditional orgasmic frequency and just learn to live with the mood swings. But to experience stimulation through intercourse without being able to orgasm seems really tough.

I would be interested in hearing other thoughts here.

We also found

that "edging" was a problem. Have you played around with steering for "the zone" during sex? It's not on the usual continuum, and you have to make space for it. Remember this article? http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/neotaoism_and_karezza

It may be that the difference is actually whether you are seeking stimulation for yourself or just kind of connecting and letting the (more selfless, loving) energy flow do the work.

The former seems to get that "gotta get it" dopamine surging, which then seeks "relief" eventually. The latter just doesn't seem to cry out for relief. It's kind of mysterious actually. Just keep going back and forth a few weeks at a time and you'll find the balance point.

Maybe Failure Is Too Much Fun?

Yeah, we are experiencing much of the same problem that you are. Your experience is very similar to our own, although I haven't gotten six weeks without O. That is very impressive on your part.

I find that it's damn hard to stay away from the insert and thrust routine. My brain is playing some dirty tricks on me. It keeps telling me I can handle it, I can handle, it . . . Whoops, I couldn't handle it. Damn! Ok, try again."

So I recognize the problem, but finding an effective solution is a bit of a challenge. It's just that the closeness and intimacy during Karezza are so intense! I have never experienced anything quite like this, but there is this sexual tension and builds and builds and eventually Mother Nature's instructions take over saying "Insert Tab A into Slot B."

My goal is to try to work on not letting the sexual tension build from a much earlier stage in the process, so as soon as I feel the sexual tension starting to build I'm going to try to breath deeply and relax while focusing purely on the intimacy and connectedness with this amazing woman in my arms. I think ultimately, however, I'm going to have to devise a self-hypnosis tape to assist me in adopting this different mind set. The self-hypnosis tape I devised to stop compulsive M has been just amazing.

Incidentally, we both had O over the weekend and we have both been a bit cranky the last couple of days. Becoming aware of these effects and their likely cause is an additional motivation, although again my brain is trying to play tricks. "It must be from lack of sleep. It's a good thing we had O or we would have had even less sleep." Good heavens! Just writing this out makes me see what an insidious effect my limbic brain has.

Still, I've got to say that in many ways I'm enjoying the process of discovery, challenge and experimentation. It sure beats the old way of self-satisfaction and disconnect!


I have some thoughts about what you've said but first would like to ask what your partners experience and perspective is with karezza. Is she refraining from orgasm like you or continuing to have them? You mentioned that you went for 6 weeks having intercourse only a couple of times and then returning to more frequency. What were her feelings, did she prefer the less frequent engaging or more regularly? What is her overall feeling with all of this? Also, how long have you been attempting karezza?

Thanks Darryl (and everyone

Thanks Darryl (and everyone else!). My partner is less bought into Karezza and non-orgasmic sex than I am. For me the attraction to Karezza comes from a desire to avoid (at least as much as possible) The Coolidge Effect. I've seen it in so many other people and felt it in myself (with previous partners) and I don't want to be the 40-something married couple who has sex once every other month. I haven't encountered any other ways that I feel are sustainable in terms of keeping the romance and affection alive in relationship other than this so I figure it's very well worth the effort.

She on the other end takes a more conventional view towards sex and doesn't see the benefit in avoiding orgasm. In fact, when we don't have orgasm frequently enough she says she doesn't feel as close to me or doesn't feel as if I'm attracted to her. I've tried to let her know that that's not the case but I can understand how it can be tough to intellectualize this. I don't really know how much she is orgasming. With me it's probably once a week or once every other week but she might be doing it more on her own (we've never really discussed this).

On the whole, Karezza is pretty new to me/us. I think I stumbled upon Marnia's writings about 4 months ago and bought her book a month after that. All of this stuff intuitively made sense to me and helped explain strong feelings of attraction for other women (even though I'd never want to have sex with anyone other than my partner) and why I'd sometimes feel hornier in the days following orgasm even though that (at the time) was counter-intuitive. I'm sure like with most things that are worthwhile this will take some trial and error and I'm typically the impatient person who wants things to work perfectly right out of the gate.

Having this community here though is awesome and of course the fact that Marnia personally replies to most threads is the icing on the cake! :)

I may be the icing,

but this situation calls for manpower. So I'm feeling really grateful that we have some guys here who can see things better from your perspective and offer insights. I'm taking notes, m'self. Wink

Personally, I wish I knew how to motivate your sweetheart. It's sometimes harder for women to see the problem because orgasm doesn't clobber us as quickly in quite the same obvious way.

Yeah, Me Too . . .

Amazingly similar situation for us as well. Nancy simply likes her orgasms. In fact, she was on on medication that pretty much made it impossible for her to have an orgasm and she went to her doctor and had him change it. I was seeing the medication as having a real potential benefit for us mutually learning about Karezza sex, but Nancy thought otherwise.

I've got to say that this is still a major improvement. We were a 40-something married couple that was having sex once every other month. So I am definitely not complaining!! Engaging in daily bonding behaviors has made an amazing difference in our relationship and level of connectedness.

Still, I am seeing the Coolidge Effects much clearer than Nancy. I asked her last night whether she thought our semi-cranky moods for the past day or so was a result of O's over the weekend or lack of sleep. As far as she is concerned, lack of sleep, nothing else. I think I'm definitely leaning more toward Coolidge effect.

Nonetheless, we are still both in exploration mode and learning by trial and error, so I'm content to let things develop and evolve over time. After 20 years of marriage, I finally figured out that I'm married to a strong willed woman whom I can't change and trying to force any issue will simply not work. Besides, being responsible for myself really is a full time job.


Ah, now I'm getting a better picture. I think your situation calls for some "manpower" as Marnia says, or as I would say, its time to "take the bull by the horns". Let me put it this way, masculine energy is about direction and purpose, feminine energy is about flow and radiance. You being the masculine energy are already exhibiting the direction/purpose piece. You saw Marnia's writings, purchased the book, and said "yes, I want to do this, lets go"; direction and purpose.

Your partner on the other hand being about things feminine I assume, is looking at this through the eyes of flow and radiance. Not, where are we going but how does this feel. Does he still love me, is he being satisfied, am I satisfying him, are we as close....

If you stay on course with the direction and purpose while holding space for her she will come on board with you. In fact, the more she senses the clarity and commitment of your direction the quicker she will relax into her flow and radiance. And watch out when she does! You'll have more radiance and flow than you may be able to handle. You may end up playing catch up to her.

If you look for too much reassurance from her rather than following your core with karezza she will be much more resistant to following your lead.

Another suggestion, women love and thrive on praise, so give her lots of it, especially around karezza time, actually as often as you feel it. If she starts associating your adoring praise of her with karezza, and you stay consistent with it, believe me, she'll be all over it.

Also, you may want to focus on your own non-orgasmic practice and not mention she do it at all. Let her have all the orgasms she wants. Sometimes when the man initiates non-orgasming lovemaking the woman can cut loose and go into a more wild phase with more orgasms. You'll see. If you stick with it she'll come around eventually. This is what happened with my wife.

I think you're doing great. It takes a bit of time, a fair amount actually, to get the hang of this along with a lot of persistence, and you have a great community here for support as you go forward. We're all learning as we go.