♥Ladies....all the ladies...

Submitted by jman1601 on
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Hey there, this is one is a question for the women out there, regarding sex drive.

There have been a few posts lately by men whose partners are uninterested in sexual relations with them. But what I find curious are those who say their female partners are uninterested sex altogether. And I don't mean sexual intercourse, but also oral sex, manual sex, solo masturbation, or even sexual fantasies.

Now, granted, i'm only 32. And although our generation is probably overstimulated, and many have unhealthy relationships to promiscuity and difficulties with emotional intimacy...one thing we tend to be comfortable with is talking about sex. And through my many sexual partners and friends in my years of conversing about sex, one thing that is universal is that all women, and I mean EVERY woman I've ever spoke with, has been a sexual creature. Sure, women have a different biological pace for arousal, and there is certainly all the societal conditioning for women about choosing sexual partners, etc. etc. But even with that, they have all been interested in sex. They either read Cosmo Magazine, or they're at least curious abou what's inside. They have sexual fantasies. And they certainly have sexual feelings.

Now I was once in a relationship where -- by the end of it -- there was no sex. But it wasn't a lack of interest on either of our parts, it was a breakdown in the relationship, my addiction to PMO, depression and mental health problems, etc. etc., So I do understand how in a failing relationship, regardless of how many years, the desire to have sex with a partner can go away.

But the asexual elimination of all sexual desire whatsoever is what I'm curious about. For these women who say to their men, "It's not just that I'm not interested in sex with you, I'm just not interested in sex whatsoever. Not even with myself, or even in my own mind." I'd like to understand what happens here? Is there a biological/biochemical change that takes place post-menopause? Is there a societal conditioning thing going on here?

Or is it that they're lying...either to their male partners or even to themselves...out of a sincere fear of the consequences for being truthful?

I come with an open heart and truly out of curiosity. I don't ever want to end up in a place where my sexual partner and I don't want to have sex with each other. And more importantly, it would be horrible if we were both *wanting* sex, but she felt she had to lie about her sexual desires out of fear. How tragic! That's a lose/lose for two people that could be creating a win/win!

I will not judge...I come seeking answers and wisdom.

Hit me with truth - J

Can only speak for myself~

I *thought* I had become asexual in my 20-year marriage (didn't think about sex, didn't masturbate, didn't want anything to do with it).

BUT...after my husband and I split up, I was suddenly off-the-charts horny!

To me, it was the relationship that caused me to push everything sexual way below the surface. I wasn't attracted to my husband anymore due to loss of communication and trust. Our biggest problem was that we were never intimate, never able to express ourselves sexually. His childhood issues plus mine added up to a whole lot of walls between us. He kept his thoughts to himself and over time, it made me feel that he didn't care enough about me to include me in his plans and dreams.

I hope he has blossomed the way I have since our divorce. I can't think of a time when I've ever been this happy. I am in love with a man who makes me feel beautiful and sexy and loved and wanted...and we are very sexually intimate, which is the key to an awesome sexual relationship, IMO.

We sometimes choose partners for reasons other than sex, especially when we are young (men might seek out a "good mother" and women might look for men with stability, etc.). It's all a long, learning process and I certainly have no regrets...but perhaps some of you younger men can figure it out earlier than I did--I would loved to have had all this knowledge when I was in my late 20s/early 30s!

P.S. I loved that song~

rediscovered

I've thought about this thread

Jman, you remind me of myself at your age. I was firmly convinced that the problems couples were running into (habituation, too little sex) could be solved with more generous foreplay and better communication. (This is also the mainstream dogma - of the non-religious, at least.) After all, the sex was just great in *my* relationships. So the problems that kept arising were obviously due to *other* issues.

First I thought it was that I was picking the wrong men. Eventually, I realized that the men in my life were, on the whole, pretty spectacular.

Then I decided it was me. And spent many years cleaning up stuff. Always a worthwhile use of anyone's time, but my relationships, although more loving, remained fragile.

Finally, I gave up and asked, "Why are my relationships so fragile?" As recounted in Cupid's Poisoned Arrow, the answer was that we are *programmed* for fragile relationships. I learned, via a combo of ancient wisdom, experimenting, and Gary's insights into neuroscience, that our mammalian mating program can easily push couples toward habituation...and what signals and neurochemicals speed its workings, or, increase the desire to stay together. See "What If She Were Always in the Mood?" http://yourbrainonporn.com/what-if-she-were-always-in-the-mood

Looking back, I saw that my "great" sex was probably strongly influenced by the fact that there was so much turnover in my relationships. The "heat" was not just due to my great skills and communication of my needs, but due to "new partner honeymoon neurochemistry," a very real, two year (maximum) booster shot that Italian researchers have shown wears off. Whether it wore off quickly, or took a couple of years, pre-programmed habituation then set in.

At the time, of course, I didn't know that. Just as you don't. The relationship you experienced, where porn/ED took over may have been habituation at work, you see. You were numbing your brain to pleasure, and the more you tried to fix it on the side (as the neurochemical booster shot wore off), the worse things got.

Hot sex *seems* like the best relationship glue in the world and men like AC and Jesse must be great lovers and very generous men to get good results for as long as they did. (In contrast, my relationships lasted pretty much as long as my honeymoon neurochemistry. ;-)) But both men ended up with relationships stuck in habituation, and turning to porn, which, to their credit they figured out wasn't fully satisfying, or was escalating, with unwanted deadening of sexual responsiveness. Hence their arrival here.

Pay attention to their stories. Because, honestly, men don't get any better than these guys (and many of the other men here.) The "cure" you propose, which is standard fare from therapists, is missing a huge biological element. About 13% of couples escape habituation without trying. Researchers call them "swans." But the other 87% do not. The rest of us simply *have* to do something differently if we want to protect the sensitivity of our reward circuitry, thus keeping the sparkle in our relationships.

Rediscovered is wisely exploring some of the options, with good results. She may think it's just because she found "the right man" (who does sound lovely Smile ), but I suspect technique is even more important. Perhaps time will tell.

My point is that a lot of really wonderful lovers can't get around this impediment to long-term relationships with "business as usual," simply because of the way their brains are set up by their sneaky genes. If you're one of them, then oral sex skills aren't going to solve your relationship woes.

Just something to keep in mind. No need to agree with me for now. You're a shiny, bright, loving, wise man. You'll figure things out. Just stay open to the signals in case this hidden factor (Cupid's poisoned arrow) is a factor in your life, too.

Thank you

my dear Marnia for your openess, caring, and intelligence
I found myself here while seeking ways to increase my love's libido....I called it The Libido Project. She was my main drug and I wasn't getting enough. Boy did I get a kick in the pants! my life has not been the same since. I have no idea what jman's gonna learn from my confused roller coaster story.
much love

I needed that

Marnia, thanks ... I needed that.

You've got one thing wrong, though. You said "But both men ended up with relationships stuck in habituation, and turning to porn, which, to their credit they figured out wasn't fully satisfying, or was escalating, with unwanted deadening of sexual responsiveness. Hence their arrival here."

It was the other way around -- I arrived here, *then* I figured things out. I was so clueless I didn't know anything was wrong.

BIG BIG BIG HUG!

Well...

[quote=Marnia]J.

Rediscovered is wisely exploring some of the options, with good results. She may think it's just because she found "the right man" (who does sound lovely Smile ), but I suspect technique is even more important. Perhaps time will tell.[/quote]

While I love my new-found knowledge of karezza/tantra, I don't think it can hold a couple together when there are too many other issues in the relationship. You have to *want* to kiss and hold someone. Sometimes you just don't have that desire anymore because of experiences you've shared together where you've learned new things about your partner that weren't obvious in the beginning of the relationship.

Some relationships never have a "hot sex/honeymoon period" (or if they do, it's over in a month!). Some go very quickly to more of a deep friendship and love that is based on a partnership, rather than sex. For karezza to work, *both* people have to want the relationship to be intimate and sexual. And that is not always going to be the case for all couples. Sometimes you just have to know when it's time to move on and live your own lives.

And while I am absolutely ecstatic to be in the relationship I am in now, I am not naive enough to think that our way of making love can always be enough to hold us together.

So I'm not placing any wagers on my future...just trying to enjoy the present with no expectations of where it will go~~which is really hard, but it's even harder to worry over what tomorrow might bring.

rediscovered

Not sure

what your question means. I didn't begin the education about the cycle after orgasm with Gary (but don't tell him that. Wink ). I had many crashes first. I'm a slow learner.

I gathered that from Cupid

I gathered that from Cupid and comments here. It was a sarcastic comment in question form suggesting that you might be naive but that you went before us and so could have simply had beginner's luck. Maybe we know too much now.

I was laying in bed with

I was laying in bed with Annabelle this morning after a nice long karezza session and I asked her "do you think we'd still be together if we hadnt been practicing karezza for the last 13 years" She looked at me and said "I don't know, maybe not". Hard to know when you laying there, skin to skin, in the afterglow, and you've been doing karezza for years. I definitely question if we would still be together after 27 years if not for non-orgamsic love making. I tend to agree with Marnia that its a very big factor in relationship harmony. I believe it starts with two compatable people, if the compatability isn't there I doubt any amount of karezza with make things blossom. On the other hand take these two compatible partners minus karezza and I think things can easily unravel, especially for those who naturally have a lot of sexual energy. Our experience is that karezza style lovemaking is a sure fire management strategy for the highly sexed.

Take two compatible people, add karezza and you have long term relationship harmony. Since karezza we feel like we've returned to the honeymoon phase.

Blinded by my youth

[quote=Marnia]Pay attention to their stories. Because, honestly, men don't get any better than these guys (and many of the other men here.) The "cure" you propose, which is standard fare from therapists, is missing a huge biological element. About 13% of couples escape habituation without trying. Researchers call them "swans." But the other 87% do not. The rest of us simply *have* to do something differently if we want to protect the sensitivity of our reward circuitry, thus keeping the sparkle in our relationships.
[/quote]

You're right, Marnia...I haven't had enough relationships get to past the honeymoon phase. After a long isolated period of not feeling comfortable expressing my sexual desires and connecting with women emotionally, I kind of had to go through slutty "binge phase" for awhile :) But, what you're saying does make a lot of sense. And even within the honeymoon phase, I have noticed how after orgasming with a woman my interest in her drops through the floor.

Even pop culture recognizes this....

37 seconds in :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRqtXd07Efg

I came here for one reason, and that was to deal with my ED problem stemming from my porn addiction. But maybe this is a blessing in disguise. This whole Karezza thing is really growing on me, and after seeing so many of my older co-workers dealing with divorce, affairs, and sex-less marriages...I should be grateful that I found this place as young as I did. I ordered the "Better than Orgasm" book on Energy Karezza and I'm going to share it with the girl I'm seeing. It's probably an easier starting place than pure karezza, because it won't make her have to abstain from orgasm as we try it. (That might be a harder sell, and we'll save it for later.) But I don't mind abstaining from orgasm. Hell, I've been doing 9+ weeks with only a few slipups. So what the hell do I care.

[quote]Just something to keep in mind. No need to agree with me for now.[/quote]

I agree with you more than you think. I just needed to understand more. Frankly, this is the only venue in existence where I get to have an open dialogue with 60-year-old men and women about their sex lives. So if I ask a lot of questions, it's because I really have no context for a lot of the discussions that take place here, right? Think about it for a moment...up until I got here, I had NO IDEA that couples were living in sexless marriages where one or both parties had no interest in sex. I mean the idea of a bunch of horny 20-somethings sleeping in separate beds and talking about how they have no interest in sex is a bit of a stretch. And somehow, the few 60-year-old women in my life don't seem to be so forthcoming about their sexual frustrations lol. But the more I hear from you and rediscovered, quizzure, darryl...the more I see how things got the way they are.

Don't worry, I'm listening intently.

[quote] you're a shiny, bright, loving, wise man. You'll figure things out. Just stay open to the signals in case this hidden factor (Cupid's poisoned arrow) is a factor in your life, too.[/quote]

Hugs. Wink

Ahem

I'm only 51. My partner's younger. Wink And our relationship was never sexless, or unhappy. We just had gotten down to 2 or 3 times a month, unless we were on vacation (we are like bunnies on vacation!) - and because of a change in our work load and responsibilities, we have not had a vacation together since sometime before 2004. The last 6 months have been like a vacation - sex/karezza usually no less than every other day, and often every day on the weekends or other days off from work. The biggest changes came from two things - being mindful about making sure we have full-body contact, peaceful bonding time every day - morning and night, and allowing ourselves to relax into sex, and to make time for it to last as long as we want on the weekends. It's pretty easy, to let the demands of jobs, and family, and obligations take over your life to the point that you don't have any quiet time left that isn't robbing you of the mere 6 hours of sleep you're lucky to get.

I suppose I do wish I'd known about the power of bonding behaviors and mindful sex and loving 20 years ago. But honestly, I have no regrets. I'm blissfully happy, in the right now, and the right now is what matters, because not one of us knows for certain what tomorrow will bring.

Quizure

Great thread

@jman: Frankly, you strike me as pretty shrewd. In any case, no one should just accept another person's weird ideas as truth without testing.

And yes it is a strange paradox that when we're in mate-search mode, our libido is through the roof (makes sense to our genes though Smile ). Yet when habituation sets in at a subconscious level, a strange alienation seems to arise often. It's not always the man who wants more and the woman who pulls away either. But somehow, the lovers often go out of sync.

I hope that none of you ever experience this eerie alienation (again), and that you are all natural swans. But just in case, you're now on notice. Smile

I commend you for being open to playing around with Stanley's book. He's actually in his nineties now. I spoke with him some months back. Lovely guy, but I'm not sure he has a partner at the moment. Ladies, this is your chance. Wink

It's fun having a little tribe of various generations who can speak frankly of such matters and exchange actual experience. This is how humans used to learn. These days we tend to rely on long-distance experts, who may or may not be asking the hard questions or open to the full range of options, depending upon how they've been indoctrinated.