Submitted by sempervirens on
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Hey everyone,
This is my first post, but I’ve been ‘lurking’ for a long time and have read CPA 2+ times. I’m also a Gnostic student, and first encountered these concepts, and Marnia’s writing, through my teachers. The experiences shared by everyone on this forum have been tremendous sources of support and encouragement in what can feel like an incredibly lonely path. Thanks to you all for being out there and sharing.

I would like to solicit advice on my personal situation; please let me know if I what I am sharing/asking is in any way not appropriate for this forum.
I am feeling a bit paralyzed and not sure how to proceed. I am a woman in my thirties who has been in a relationship with a wonderful guy for almost two years now. He is not a gnostic student, nor is he (overtly) spiritual. He IS intuitive, kind, and open-minded, and I’m head over heels in love with him.
When we got together, I was terrified of telling him about my belief in foregoing orgasm and interest in karezza (I had had no prior experience with it). As a result of my own nervousness, I made the whole thing way more awkward than it had to be, primarily because I expected outright rejection…which wasn’t what I got. He was surprised, thoughtful, and hesitant at first, but after some time to reflect, responded that if it was important to me, he was open to learning more and willing to try….if I was willing to take the lead.

Well...great! Right? Not exactly. Taking the lead in an area in which I am a novice has been highly uncomfortable for me. Although I’ve done a reasonable amount of reading on Tantric sex and karezza, I am far from an expert on either, or on sexuality in general. Since our original conversations (over a year and a half ago), I have wanted to give him more information, starting, perhaps with the more scientifically-oriented sections of CPA. But every time I try, I’m overcome by a paralysis of sorts, and thus haven’t been able to initiate in-depth discussions on the topic.

The result has been that we’ve been forgoing orgasm (for the most part), but otherwise have been having sex more or less conventionally. (He has fantastic control, and “accidental” orgasms have been more of an issue for me than him.) But I am well aware that orgasm-less sex alone, and certainly not as we are practicing it, is not karezza. In addition, I just re-read the part of CPA that states that vigorous sex followed by suppression of orgasm can lead to prostate damage! So I realize we cannot go on this way any longer.

Part of my hesitation is that I know he really likes “athletic” sex (and I do too, in a way) and I want to consider his needs and preferences, especially given how wonderful he has been about all this. I’m terrified he’ll find karezza boring, and I have no real “currency” (in the form of personal experience) to convince him that, ultimately, the result will be better than what we’re both giving up.

In the meantime, he says that while he does sometimes want to have an orgasm, he is generally okay without it. He insists he wants to know more and experiences frustration with me for not telling him what to do. But I don’t know any more than what I’ve read, and am far from an expert on male sexuality, so I have a hard time telling him anything, much less providing tips on technique or accurate information on what to expect.
So we keep fumbling along, having (mostly) friction-based sex, and when orgasms inadvertently occur, we both feel incredibly guilty: he feels he’s let me down, and I feel like a big fat hypocrite for having asked him to make such a great sacrifice while failing it myself!

I realize that most - if not all - of the issue is my own fear and hesitation, and I suspect I have a good idea what folks might say by way of advice. But, regardless, if anyone is inclined to respond, please do so. I feel incredibly alone in this, swimming against an incredibly powerful biological and societal current, and could really use some support. Any input from the guys is especially welcome.

Sorry for the length of this post. Thank you, thank you for the wonderful forum.

Welcome sempervirens

Have you read Tantric Sex for Men (you mention you are familiar with tantric sex)? Very good book to help with some of your questions.

I am not familiar with Gnostic. Is that the reason you decided to try karezza?

One of the hardest things for me in learning karezza has been knowing when to stop -- meaning edging too close to orgasm. It's a natural thing to get worked up and want orgasm and karezza is really a different way of looking at things.

I personally have not found a place for athletic sex with karezza, it would just get me too close to orgasm. If you are trying karezza and do orgasm every now and then, don't consider it a terrible thing, it happens and is part of the learning process.

As a guy, I think it's important that you are confident your boyfriend is fine with the decision not to orgasm and do karezza instead. For me, karezza has been about getting closer to my wife and involves more relaxation than hot sex.

So if you do not want to orgasm, you probably need to dial it back a bit. CPA has some good exercises to get started, or you can experiment with a variety of thinks to emphasize the closeness over the finish line (so to speak).

You will find this forum to be very open, so don't be afraid to ask anything. Great folks out here and there are some women who are much more experienced with karezza than I am who I'm sure will respond.

Thank you for the

Thank you for the suggestions and encouragement. Gnostic studies were/are the inspiration for my interest in karezza. I haven't read Tantric Sex for Men, but will add it to my list. Thanks again, I appreciate it.

I just made my first attempt

to introduce karezza to a date yesterday. It was not at all like your situation. This was a woman I had just met. She is very spiritual. And she is accustomed to orgasmic sex. As things grew heated in our intimacy, I made an awkward effort to advocate "taking things slow". It really didn't work. I haven't even received my copy of CPA yet, which I recently ordered. And I have no karezza experience. But I think for me the most important thing to recognize was that this woman and I did not have a deep and powerful bond. I don't think people can do karezza without such a bond. It's so awkward to speak about intimacy I find. It really is. But I confided to this woman that I feel insecure in how I kiss. You can probably imagine how difficult it is to say something like that, and invite dialogue. But we talked about it. I imagine that when the time comes for me to introduce karezza to someone it's going to be very difficult. I'll have to intuit that she and I have a strong enough connection. I think it's great that you are head over heels in love after two years. That says you are doing something right, because from what I understand two years is the time when partners usually get sick of each other.

Thank you, Telepathy! I sure

Thank you, Telepathy! I sure agree that it's awkward to speak about intimacy. Open communication is something I value but was never taught, so open dialogue alone is difficult, much more so when the subject is so intimate. That said, congrats on taking the leap and confiding in your date! One thing I'm learning is that even successful communication isn't always pretty, despite our best intentions :)


@ Semper and Telepathy My thought is just to ask your partner to read the book and give you his/her opinion. That should at least open the discussion. Then you'll either have a partner for the adventure, or you can both come up with a compromise that works for you for now.

@ Semper I'm going to ask Darryl to respond to your concerns. He's really good at helping men understand this and he may have some ideas for you on how to help your partner make the transition. I've enabled you to blog if you like. I'm really happy for you that you have such a great guy. Smile

Thank you, Marnia! I agree;

Thank you, Marnia! I agree; that is a great suggestion (asking him to read the book). I've thought of it before (and even flagged some sections for him), but somehow always choke on actually suggesting/presenting it to him. Your encouragement sure helps though, as does my realization that I need to either commit to trying this wholeheartedly or let it go. And, I'd love to hear from Darryl; I think most of my hesitation arises from my not being a guy (!) and thus feeling completely ill-equipped to address the male perspective. Again, thank you!


I do have some thoughts for you but have a question first. How long have the two of you been practicing sex without orgasm? I may not get back to you until this evening as I have a rather busy day.

Hi Darryl! Thanks for

Hi Darryl! Thanks for writing and take your time getting back to me - no rush at all.

We have been practicing (or trying to practice) sex without orgasm since the beginning. We began dating in Sept 2009, and I told him about my intention/desire to practice non-orgasmic sex prior to the first time we had sex, which was around November or early December of 2009. We have been fairly successful in avoiding orgasm, actually. I could probably count on my hands (if i had three hands) the number we've had between the two of us. But we're not practicing karezza.

Thanks again!


That's an interesting distinction you're making between non orgasmic sex and Karezza. Could you elaborate? It may help me as I probably still labour under the delusion that if there is no orgasm it must be Karezza!

Hey Sood

Sure, glad to elaborate. We do avoid orgasm, and we engage in a lot of non-sexual, non-goal-oriented touch (we both love snuggling...and wrestling). However, during sex, we are still at least partially oriented towards heating each other up and exchanging as much pleasure as possible, still tensing muscles and engaging in vigorous thrusting movements to generate intense, friction-based sensations (sorry to be graphic). It's almost like once we "decide" (in a silent, tacit way) to have sex, we get on a train that is hell-bent for its destination. Sure, the destination may not be orgasm, but otherwise, we're still riding the same train with all the same stops.

On the other hand, karezza, as I understand it, is practiced in a relaxed manner, with slow and subtle movement (or none at all). It also involves a fair amount of open-endedness as far as if and when intercourse will take place, and calls for continued presence in the moment and the flexibility to not push for a desired outcome if the physical and emotional circumstances are not quite right. (Folks who are actually practicing, please chime in/correct me!)

I hear you though, I've labored under that delusion for a long time now. I was so amazed that I found someone I liked so much who was also willing to forego orgasm, that I didn't dare push the non-conventionality any further. But the result is that I now feel stuck in a kind of limbo, where I'm not really practicing anything fully. Of course, it always makes sense to have patience with yourself (and partner) and make such a dramatic transition in a gradual way. But if you stop moving entirely then you get stuck....

Greater than great

I'm all too familiar with boarding that particular 'train' - as you say, the destination may not be orgasm, but the driver still behaves as if it was!

When I first came across the term Karezza, about eight years ago, in a book by Barbara Keesling, it was offered as an occasional alternative to 'ordinary' sex, and as I understood it at the time, it simply meant intercourse without orgasm. Later, I read Peace between the Sheets and visited Reuniting and found the manuals by Lloyd and Stockham. Their language was so archaic it was difficult to determine what actually happened during intercourse as they described it. The outcome was clear, but the actual practice remained obscure. I then read 'Karezza' by Stanley Bass, and he gave some detailed explanation of how to proceed. The trouble was, he reckoned the non orgasmic part was only for the man, whose job was to enable the woman he was with to have as many orgasms as she liked. Finally, I read 'Slow Sex', by Diana Richardson, which doesn't actually mention Karezza, by name, but implies it, while describing very precisely a quite different form of lovemaking to that of Bass. Movement still takes place, but there is much more emphasis on relaxation.

I'm at a personal impasse which I've gone into in various posts. My wife and I are still trying to work out a modus operandi that enables us to stay interested in continuing without escalating the action. That was why I was keen to know how you discriminated between Kareezza and non orgasmic sex. At present, I'd say we osscilate between orgasmic sex, which is great, but does appear to have a considerable, if sometimes very well hidden fallout, non orgasmic sex which is also great, but not quite as great as orgasmic sex, but which doesn't have as much fallout, and Karezza, as you and others have described it, which is also great, but nothing like as great as either orgasmic or non orgasmic sex. Unfortunately, although it has absolutely no fallout, and seemingly promotes all manner of benefits, with the promise of great richness to come, it is incredibly soporific, so we're usually asleep before any of the marvellous experiences reported by others that might make it 'greater than great' have any chance of occurring.


I'm about to write in response to your questions and then you say something else that makes me what to ask you another question. I was waiting for your answer to Sood's question as I had the same one after you answer to my first question. Now I have another question.

This, lets called it "action based karreza" you practice. Do you like it this way? I cant quite tell if you simply like it this way in this point in your life but feel its somehow not right since its not the "true" karezza way, or is it that you want to move away from "action based karezza" but don't know how to. Which is it?

I just want to say, if you like what your doing, its perfectly OK with me, I wont send the karezza police to your house.

Here's an idea

Whenever he slows down, give him signals that you REALLY LIKE what's happening. If you like it, and allow yourself to feel particularly...receptive during the slow times, I think he might find he likes the slow bits more, too.

If you need more ideas on how to feel into those slower, extra sensual feelings, you might want to have a look at Diana Richardson's Tantric Orgasm for Women. She gives a couple of approaches, or maybe explains things in various different ways. The key is to start with what you're feeling in your breasts and let the energy radiate into your vagina. He can help by touching your breasts especially lovingly.

When you put your focus on your breasts, it automatically takes "your foot off of the accelerator" a bit. Smile

The referrals to Diana

The referrals to Diana Richardson's two books would also be at the top of my list for the two of you. I am fond of describing CPA as the take-off (imagine an airplane) or how to get from orgasmic or non-orgasmic sex, and Richardson's books as what to do when you're in the air, how to understand what is actually happening then. I think you will find Richardson's books insightful.

Darryl was also very helpful to me when we started. He nudged me very gently towards the electromagnetic energy experiences. His message was simply: Follow the energy. First, though, you need to feel the electromagnetic energy and in my experience sexual energy seems to mask it. It is as if the magnetic energy is strings and the sexual energy, the louder horns. I've written in some detail about my early experiences on my blog here. You might want to look at those.

That said, there is no right way to practice karezza. If you and your partner want to keep sexual energy at a higher pitch, if that is what you love--and don't we all!--then do that!

I am glad that you feel comfortable discussing sex here. The next step is being able to talk about it with the man you love. Perhaps the first step there would be to talk with him about what makes it so hard to talk about. Do you have any practices just for yourself to help with fear? I do have a couple of suggestions if you are interested.

Finally, not being able to talk about sex, especially cross-gender, is so, so, so common. And I was one of the most afflicted (a good girl and minister's daughter to boot!). Couldn't talk about it with my husband of over thirty years until something shifted last year! Then, we started Mania's exchanges and karezza, as described by Richardson, and we talked after every exchange. What did you experience? What next? You?

I hope you can make this shift, too.

"Adopt the pace of nature; her secret is patience."
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Welcome Sempervirens

Typical uninitiated men are so driven by the fertilization urges of male “burst pattern” orgasm that when first exposed to the concept of foregoing orgasm the initial “knee jerk” reaction is “why in the world would anyone want to do this?”

When all their real life experience to this point has taught them their pleasure is directly linked to ejaculatory orgasm and if one were to give up the orgasm then you would be giving up the pleasure - so what would be the sense in engaging in sex at all if there is no pay off.

The biggest hurdle and the hardest sell is to convince men that by embracing sacred sex practices such as Karezza and foregoing orgasm they can actually get more pleasure than they ever received from a six second “burst orgasm” while maintaining a much healthier neurochemical balance that fosters vast improvements with bonding and intimacy with his partner.

My wife and I are not Karezza “purists” as she remains highly orgasmic - but we have found the extreme endorphin cycling caused by my ejaculatory orgasm to have all of the very subtle but most profound negative effects as described by the “Coolidge Effect”. By avoiding orgasm and no longer depleting myself I find my overall energy level is higher, my demeanor is improved, and I maintain the hunger and attachment for my lovely wife that she finds very appealing.

Although we are very careful to avoid my orgasm we revel in the pleasure of our joining and do everything we possibly can to extract the maximum amount of pleasure from our intimate activities. I like Darryl’s description of “action based Karezza” as that is a better fit for what we do. I would not say that we engage in a lot of high friction “athletic” sex but we have not taken anything off the table like oral/etc. because it “might” generate too much heat – and even though we hang out in the “80’s” (80% arousal state where 100% = orgasm) we do heat things up at times.

I believe the slow deliberate approach (of Karezza like activities) fosters an environment in which you become much more in tune with the workings of your bodies and the ebb and flow of energy between you as a couple. We truly delight in seeing how much energy we can generate and shift back and forth between us – this liberates immense pleasure for us both – my wife is multi-orgasmic even with very subtle movements – she claims the relaxed state combined with the high energy we generate together is all but irresistible and she is having more orgasms now than when we were engaging in high friction athletic sex (and going for orgasms) in the past. And as for me the extended play time at high levels of arousal is vastly more pleasurable – when conditions are right I have what the Tantrics describe as the “waves of bliss” experience – and my lovely wife has kept me in this surreal state of ecstasy for over fifteen continuous minutes – until I asked her to stop due to sheer system overload. All this without ejaculatory orgasm ever being a part of it. No refractory period, no "downtime" so you can go right back for more. No mood swings, depressive state, or withdrawal so you remain "connected". Sharing this much pleasure at such a deep level fosters a level of bonding and intimacy that few people ever achieve – and here we are in our mid/late 40’s more “connected” than we were during our honeymoon phase more than 20 odd years ago. Truly enjoying when the young people roll their eyes at us and say “go get a room” because we literally cannot keep our hands off each other. It is that good!

I felt really alone two days ago…

Thanks so much to everyone for sharing your insights and experience.

Darryl, please do send the karezza police to my house – I bet their uniforms are fabulous! And your questions are great - they’re helping me clarify my myself. Do I like the action-based approach? Well…*some* aspects of it. Firm, decisive movement feels great at the right time. But I honestly do not like when it gets fast, and definitely not anything approaching rough. My favorite is when we slow it way the hell down and move very slightly. The few times we’ve really done this (all at my initiation) have been amazing. The first time I almost started crying and, during the most recent instance, I started to notice some things happening in the space that was created. Just some involuntary muscle contractions, nothing major, but it felt amazing. He, on the other hand, fell asleep. ( Sood must be on to something about the experience being soporific…at least for the guys.) He did comment on how it was a nice way to fall asleep, but we clearly weren’t having the same experience.

Marnia and SnowyOwl – I have ordered Diana Richardson; thanks! SnowyOwl, you are totally right about communication. In fact, as writing my initial post, I thought, “this is so much more about communication than about sex!” Funny, too, because (I think) I’m a (reasonably) good communicator…unless I sense there is risk involved - then the fear takes over. And this is about as important and as delicate (hence as risky) as it gets. I would love it if you’d like to share some practices for managing fear.

Virgil, thanks so much for your insights. So compelling and blissful-sounding, yet practical and accessible enough that I might like to (if you don’t mind) excerpt some of it for my BF when we talk next. And oh my gosh I want what you guys are having.

So funny!!


Darryl, please do send the karezza police to my house – I bet their uniforms are fabulous![/quote]

Ha ha ha ha ha!!

And I wanted to comment on the "soporific" aspect for men~~I'm thinking maybe once you and your sweetie read the TOfM book, that might change? (although I know it has not for Sood) It just seems like once a man knows that he is supposed to be fully engaged (mind, body, soul), there is no way karezza can be sleep-inducing (unless you *both* let go of the energy for awhile and allow yourselves to relax into a little bit of sleep). I get the feeling there is no way my lover can resist the energy I am sending and therefore, he's not only awake, but very much into the moment.

You two will figure it out--the fun is in the practicing! I can tell you with certainty that the longer you do it, the better and better it becomes.


Two Practices for Fear

One of the practices I recommend is through body sensation, visualization of the sensation, and dialogue. The other works with thoughts. Choose whichever feels right to you to start. Experiment with them both. Repetitive use of the practices is what helps things to shift. Just like karezza. To quote rediscovered, "the more you practice, the better it gets..."

Lama Tsultrim Allione developed the method involving body sensations, visualization, and dialogue. Her process is described in her book, Feeding Your Demons: Ancient Wisdom for Resolving Inner Conflict. She has identified a 5 step process that is easy to implement and is fully spelled out in her book. Amazon has reviews of the book and maybe used copies. Used copies would also be available though abebooks. Here's the site for a form to write down your process:

Byron Katie has developed a method to deal with thoughts. All of the elements of her process are available on her web site (, but it is helpful to read her book, Loving What Is: Four Questions that Can Change Your Life. Ditto about Amazon and abebooks for her, too.

These methods work with whatever troublesome thoughts or feelings lurk in your mind or body, not just fear, though fear is the most fundamental in my mind.
"Adopt the pace of nature; her secret is patience."
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Semper you're making me think how karezza police would dress.

Thank you for clarifying your feelings and position. Here are my thoughts. I wasn't sure at first, but now it sounds like you're pretty clear about what you want. First, I want to say, I think you and your guy are doing fabulously. The full breadth of karezza takes time and you two are moving well. Part of the wonderfulness is finding your way as you explore. There is no right way to practice karezza, only your way. Look at how blissful Virgil and his wife are doing just what's perfect for them.

I also think you've got a real keeper. When you expressed your desires to practice karezza it sounded like he really responded to you. This means he is receptive to you, your feminine intuition and wisdom, this is very good. Now as far as leading him along, I have some thoughts for you. Having a man be receptive and open to feminine wisdom supports a balanced relationship and demonstrates masculine strength. Leading your man one step at a time does not. Masculine energy by nature is self directive. We see an idea, (in this case, your idea), digest it and then run with it. A man feels it and then makes it his own. If you direct it at every step then you're carrying too much of the masculine energy yourself which means you're not fully leaning into your feminine energy and he ends up moving more into his feminine. Express what you want, then let him figure it out and run with it. When, after a while you sense another flow you want to move towards, and he may not be getting it, then tell him what you want, and again, let him take the ball and figure it out. I get the feeling your at that point again.

You could say something like, "I love what we've done so far, its been wonderful for me and opened me up in a whole new way. Now I'm being drawn to slow it down and experience more subtler movement, which I think can be just as delicious. I still want to feel the power and strength of your masculine energy, I love it when you give me that, but with less high friction. See what you can do, I want to explore with you more than ever". Notice how I kept it very "I" focused. Now let him figure it out. You may need to tell him again when he lapses into being a pumping machine. That's fine, but dont get into directing the show. That's masculine energy.

Just so he knows knows, (speaking as a fellow guy), there is just as much sexual energy and pleasure in slow movement, actually way more. I find it much more pleasureable and delicious than high movement. Too much friction is a desensitizer. A man will have a hard time finding the equally strong feelings in slow movement until he moves away from high friction. He wont be giving up any pleasure only discovering a new way to have even more. Believe me, if karezza was less pleasureable the conventional sex, I'd still be pumping away. It just takes some readjusting.

Too me communicating about sex shouldnt be delicate or risky at all. A healthy relationship allows free expression in this area, in all area's for that matter. That's not to say we shouldnt word things in a caring and gentle way, but if what you say bruises his ego then you'll have to work on that. From what you've said it sure doesnt sound that way.

As far as handling fear goes, my motto for a long time has been "whatever it is you fear, head straight for it". When you let fear run you it makes you a victim, and I dont do victim. If you're afraid to express your feeling to your man then that's exactly what you need to do. Just keep the "I" word central to what you say. Fear shrinks when you face it.

I'll give you an example. I've always had a gripping fear of being trapped underwater, so one day I said "enough". I did two things. One, I took scuba diving lessons. I was a basket case all during the lessons until I got on the tanks in the open ocean and went straight to the bottom, 30ft down and sat on the ocean floor looking up at the surface and just breathed. I'll never forget that momemt. The other thing was to put myself in a kayak and take rolling lessons. Upside down strapped into a kayak was pure terror for me. Now I have my own kayak, go out all the time, and love to practice rolling. Fears don't go away unless you make them.

Reach out, grab your fear by the throat, and throttle the big bully. You'll discover that he's just a little boy or girl filled with hot air.

Oh, yeah, last but not least, just like everyone else has said, make sure to give him "Tantric sex for Men, by Diana Richardson" It explains it all quite clearly. Sounds like you've already order it.

Enjoy your journey and discovery, you and your man deserve al the sweet pleasure you can have.


[quote]Dont get into directing the show. That's masculine energy.[/quote]
I loved this simple description. It complements women's role as boat or receptive energy so beautifully.

[quote]Reach out, grab your fear by the throat, and throttle the big bully. You'll discover that he's just a little boy or girl filled with hot air.[/quote]
Also a tried and true method. In fact, the one in use for phobias. Called in professional circles, desensitization. You could do this gradually, rather than in one (or two) fell swoops as Darryl did, if you can figure out, say, three, increasingly "risky" steps to take.

In my experience it is, in fact, the choice to behave differently that fundamentally changes the picture. The other practices that I mentioned are the ground work to prepare for acting differently. You still have to behave differently for things to change.

"Adopt the pace of nature; her secret is patience."
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Oh wow

Thanks, you guys. This is all really helpful. Reflecting a bit more, i'd say part of my hesitiation is (good old fashioned) fear, while part is (perhaps) more 'logical' hesitation that comes from not really understanding what I'm asking of him (i.e., the male experience/perspective). I generally don't like to ask things of people unless I understand what I'm asking. This karezza business kinda stymies that ; )

Darryl, thanks particularly for the input about leading, masculine/feminine energy, etc. Reading your post, I realized I was kind of hoping for him to take a little more initiative after the first time we talked. i gave him some information verbally, then later sent him a few links. He did check them out (even commented, way back when, on how impressed he was with this site), but didn't really seem to delve into it too deeply. i know if *I* were told by someone I really liked that they were really interested in....anything....and wanted to share it with me, I'd read everything I could get my hands on. So, honestly, I guess I was kind of disappointed when he didn't respond that way. I realized that if I want this to happen, I need to take more initiative. But, as you said, I don't really want to lead him step by step. On the other hand, I do feel an enormous amount of pressureto take responsibility and initiative for this since it is something *I* want and am "imposing"on him. Hence, the dilemma.

I think I'll try gently broaching the topic, maybe giving him a little more information this time, and gauging his response.

Thanks again to everyone; you've really given me a lot to work with. Very grateful.

Good luck

Let us know how it goes.

I think men like to be good at things *before* they lead—in part because they don't want to let us down. Karezza is so unfamiliar that that simply isn't possible.

Both parties need a sense of adventure and a trial-and-error mentality instead. I was just watching a TED talk that said the best systems are developed by trial-and-error. Make sure he knows he has the right to "fail" if he takes a more leading role while you two are figuring things out. All experiments will teach you *something* useful. Wink