The Question Men Don't Want Answered

Submitted by davidphd1866 on
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After reading "What to do with the Surplus" it's becoming more and more apparent that the male ejaculation serves only one useful (useful, not "pleasurable") purpose and that is for procreation. It seems we do our brains more harm than good by such a release whenever procreation is not the goal. http://www.reuniting.info/science/surplus_sexual_energy Further, my wife asked me recently to give her "one good reason why I should orgasm?" I can't give her one.

This leads me to my question. Suppose Karezza is done "perfectly". That is, the couple has practiced it for a long time and have become quite good at it. Suppose also that the couple doesn't want children.

How then would this group describe the ejaculatory "habits" of a male Karezza practioner? I know the pat answer can be "everyone is different", but would the ideal "schedule" look like? Obviously slip ups can occur, but absent those, what would be the ideal "frequency"?

David

Everyone is different

Sorry, had to say that.

As I go further down the karezza road and also learn more about how my body really reacts to orgasm, my answer is never. No more orgasms unless my body decides to do it on it's own (while sleeping). That's pretty strong and perhaps unrealistic. Retraining the brain for that is difficult. But so far I am shocked at the difference when not orgasming.

That said, I have noticed that an orgasm with a women does leave a different after-effect that is more tolerable than one that is self generated.

I haven't been doing this long enough to be close to an expert.

I agree

Thanks for the reply wfk007. (Whatever happened to 006?)

I think you are correct. It's politically incorrect to say so, but I see no good reason for the male orgasm either when looked at from the Karezza perspective. I have made the same decision.....no more orgasms unless my body does it on its own. I admit, too, that I currently lack the skills to acheive this, but it's certainly the worthy objective.

The results are just too good to pass up!

David

yes

She is....sort of. She is not much for "research", but she now sees how orgasms tire her out. She now gets the making love without orgasm concept. This was a big breakthrough. She's primarily just liking the closeness.

And thanks for remembering....deducing.....etc.....I am so glad you and Gary are carrying on what appears to be the ONLY serious effort in combining real science with real anecdotal evidence and logic to relationships.

Like I said in my original title "the question most men don't want answered", the conclusions are there, just that no one really wants to say it. (Even you and Gary!)

Regards,

David

That's exciting news!

Since you were here last (I think), there has been a lot of enthusiasm among couples for this book: http://www.reuniting.info/tantric_sex_for_men_richardson You and your sweetheart might find it inspiring too.

About ejaculation frequency: I'm not ducking your question because I don't want to say something. As you know, Gary and I don't "try" for orgasms. But nor do we feel an urge to prescribe orgasmic behavior for others. We're more inclined to say, "Hey, if things aren't working, try this out for a while and see if you notice improvements. These are the benefits we've seen."

I guess we're rebels at heart, because "rules" don't feel right to us. Wink That said, you're free to discuss the matter here. And to express your views, whether or not we agree.

Because they are fun

Maybe everyone is wired differently, but I love having orgasms, especially after going long periods (several days to a few weeks) without. If it would feel that way every time, I would have orgasms all the time, but for me, it is spreading that pleasure and energy out. It is also fun and pleasurable for me to forgo orgasms, balance seems to be important. Maybe some people don't like having orgasms? I cannot say that is true for me.

Here's a question: what if you are a person who can easily orgasm without "trying"? I understand avoiding goal oriented sex when it comes to hitting an orgasm, but also seems like many people (and a lot on this website) set the goal or goals of avoiding orgasms.

It is hard to find points of view from couples in satisfying sexual relationships---so I certainly understand the question about how often to orgasm or not orgasm. In my marriage it seems like we go through episodes or periods of more and less orgasmic sex and both have a place depending on a lot of factors. The past several weeks, we have been having more sex and fewer orgasms---but I don't see that always being the case, even if it has been pretty satisfying lately.

Hey skeptic!

Nice to see you.

Orgasms without "trying" seem to produce fewer neurochemical ripples according to the brave explorers here on Reuniting. What has your experience been?

Just for the record we don't avoid orgasm because we didn't like orgasms. Smile We just prefer the benefits of karezza. We notice that there's a degree of...fallout during the couple weeks after orgasm. Mind you, we didn't notice until we experimented with the alternative. It's very subtle, but we prefer the increased energy and rosy spectacles (clearer perception) provided by karezza practice.

Everyone should do as they please, but sometimes it pays to experiment with the alternative just so folks see their options.

It's great that you've found what works for you and your wife.

It would be interesting to

It would be interesting to know if there are some people (maybe very few) who don't like what they experience with orgasms, or who could take them or leave them. I would bet some people are like that, for whatever reason.

My experience is that it is much easier to avoid me having an orgasm if we communicate that as a goal ahead of intercourse. Even then, it sometimes takes some really will power to avoid having one. We don't generally have indifference about it, at least at this point.

If men have a hangover 14 days after an orgasm, doesn't it follow that one should wait at least that long between orgasms,as a general practice?

(raises hand)

[quote=skeptic]It would be interesting to know if there are some people (maybe very few) who don't like what they experience with orgasms, or who could take them or leave them. I would bet some people are like that, for whatever reason.[/quote]

Despite my lack of experience with another person...I own a vibrator, and sometimes use it when I haven't slept for a few days and am desperate for some rest (I've dealt with insomnia for nearly all of my life, so I have to be completely exhausted and utterly miserable to resort to this). Yeah, the climax puts me to sleep for a good 6-8 hours...but I'm still tired the next day. By "tired", I mean NO energy. Sometimes I'm cranky, or have a persistent mental fog as well. I won't miss that.

The only other thing that has ever helped me sleep was sleeping next to my ex, so if I can find someone new, I'm all set.

Yes---I frequently use an

Yes---I frequently use an orgasm to fall asleep when I am overly stressed out too. The problem is that at least half the time the over stimulation causes me to wake up a short time later with few other options. The other problem is that it leads to the bad habit of wanking when I am not aroused and it interferes with a normal appetite over time. I totally relate to that. And the orgasms are not very satisfying when I go on those binges.

Pinup,

It's really time to find you a cuddle buddy. Want to say what general region you're in so any of the noble Reuiting lads can PM you if they're nearby? They know your issues and know that boundaries are vital.

I know chemistry is important for cuddle buddies, too, so this is a long shot, but it sounds like it would do both parties some serious good if it were to be a possibility. Might help both of you feel balanced enough to then reach out to true mates.

Frequency for me?

I'd say "never", and not for some moral reason, I simply prefer not to. I think of it like surfing, I don't intentionally fall of my board but its bound to happy every once in a while. Oh, those intoxicating waves of feminine bliss.

Orgasm = end for me and I love the feeling of never getting enough of my woman. There's nothing about orgasm that draws me to it.

surfing analogy

When you fall off your board, do you actively dislike it? Disappointed? Run with it? For me, it is more like coming to the end of a fun ride. Exciting, but I don't want to go to the amusement park everyday.

never getting enough of my woman

[quote=Darryl]I love the feeling of never getting enough of my woman. [/quote]

It doesn't happen very often for us, but when my wife and I are "in the zone" I want it to never end, which it will if I have an orgasm. So I do my best to stay "on the board" and not fall off, or it's over. However, if she leaves me (i.e., falls asleep) then I often can't resist the urge to take care of business ASAP.

My fault~

My lover told me recently that he doesn't even think about orgasm any more.

The times he has slipped have always been *my* fault (either my thoughts went to his ejaculation or my actions caused it to happen). But even then, he doesn't have an orgasm, just an ejaculation (he says it feels like it's snatched out of him).

When my thoughts/actions don't go there, his don't, either. (but interestingly, when I have an orgasm that comes out of nowhere, it does not have the same pulling effect on him at all)

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Your fault?

It would seem that he has some accountability in the equation. I don't think I would like feeling that way about my orgasms, but that's me. Rare but high quality would be good.

Nope~

My fault. He probably would have agreed with you six months ago, but not now.

None of us here are at the exact same place right now, but it doesn't matter...it's all good and all a learning experience.

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

I agree.

I'm positive that I've been 'at fault' many times. There are things that I now know better than to do - or even think - because somehow thinking changes the way my muscles and tissues behave. My experience is the same as yours.

I'm still learning - or unlearning these things. I have so many years of training to unlearn.

Quizure

Bravo Darryl

I think his surfing analogy is perfect. When I ride my mountain bike, I never intend to fall off, but occasionally I do. Sometimes the lingering effects of a fall last quite a while!

So I have to agree with him: "Never" is the right frequency of ejaculation--while allowing that there will be occasional falls.

Perhaps a language clarification: Marnia defines Karezza as "intercourse without the goal of orgasm". Rather, it may be thougt of as intercourse with an intent not to orgasm. A slight difference, but maybe a useful change of language for some.

Finally, I have a question for Gary. If alcoholics are best adviced not to drink AT ALL, then wouldn't the same logic apply to an addicted orgasmer? I don't believe that AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) would ever recommend "moderate drinking". Isn't the same dopamine cycle going on here?

David

"Intent not to"

can lead to unhealthy inner conflict for some people—particularly those with strong religious or authoritarian backgrounds. That's counterproductive for many people when learning to tiptoe past a strong biological program. In short, trying to fight orgasm doesn't work well.

I think more people have success with "relaxing" past their urges, rather than fighting them. Hence our word choice.

Falling off a mountain bike

Falling off a mountain bike would seem like it would hurt. Maybe that is your experience. Never been surfing, but I could only imagine that there would be something exciting about crashing into the water, even though that is not your intent. I have a hardtime accepting a comparison to being an alcoholic---we are here today because of millions of years of orgasms---but I know others look at it differently. Seems like a stretch.

It's a really big question.

It's a really big question. How does one define an addicted orgasmer?

FIRST: Is orgasm the same neurochemical cycle as binge drinking? No.
Otherwise they would feel exactly the same. Dopamine rising and falling will occur with both, but there is so much more neurochemically. Are there similarities between an alcoholic binging and a porn addict binging? Maybe a few more - such as activation of sensitized pathways, and rising of DeltaFosb, and inhibition of dopamine following the binge.

SECOND: What works for an artificial non-essential molecule, may not work for natural (normal) rewards. Like food, sex and orgasm are natural rewards, with built in satiation mechanisms. We can override these mechanisms, and suffer consequences. but we are genetically wired to eat and procreate. Most people will engage in both throughout their lifetimes, so I wouldn't classify either as an addiction. Nearly all the men who are addicted to porn, must eventually find balance with sex, just as formerly obese must with food. We offer the possibilty of using karezza, but few will choose it.

THIRD: Many critics of the AA believe the black and white, all or none approach can actually foster binging. Addicts can easily fall into - "well I've had one beer, I blew it, so I might as well go for it".
Or that the guilt and shame of relapse furthers the binging.

FOURTH: People should choose karezza because it has benefits, rather than orgasm is "bad". I'm not a big fan of solo abstinence, unless it is used to give up a porn addiction.

Thanks Gary

These explanations were helpful. I am grateful you took the time to explain the contrasts.

I do wish to clarify for everyone that I don't deem orgasm "bad", just that it doesn't appear to have many good uses other then for procreation. But I feel that the very explanation of it's "good, so don't worry about it" is what has led so many to addiction in the first place.

David

I see your point

but wouldn't it be better to just explain that there's more to orgasm than the high, and that the rest of the neurochemical cycle that follows can shift perception of a partner (and one's life) for the worse? There's already some evidence to back this up. If scientists ever began asking the right questions I bet they could confirm the existence of such a cycle in no time. See "The Passion Cycle" http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/200908/the-pas...

Then the "more the merrier" advice would be obviously an error. And people could steer for balance, whatever that looks like for them, with greater ease. Maybe someone should write a book about this. Oh yeah, we did. Wink

Fasting

I like to think of it more like fasting, giving up something you like that you really don't *need*(and is even good for you a lot of the time), in order to get out of a rut. Somewhere on the Internet, I saw a really good article about getting out of ruts, that was based on easy to follow tips, and included "giving something up" that you spend a lot of time on, or feel a dependency on. For many of us, long term orgasm avoidance can be an almost mysitical experience. When you are in the groove, it is hard to imagine anything else. I totally get that (have had one O since the start of summer). I'm not really sure what being "addicted" to an orgasm really would be (as opposed to say a sex additiction or porn addiction). The analogy of alcoholism doesn't work for me, especially considering all of the health and societal problems associated with alchol and alcholism. Again, I totally get the benefits or avoidance, but it would be hard for me to imagine someone slowly killing themselves with an orgasm, assuming the person doesn't have some other physical or mental health risks.

very sound comments

However, you can ask some of the men in Onania.org what they think about as far as the damage that can be done via masturbation and orgasm. Almost half of them are no longer even ABLE to have intercourse because of too much vigorous porn and masturbation.

Nevertheless, your points and reasoning are quite well taken. I like to think of it as a groove as well.

David

OK, but

Masturbation and orgasm are two different things. Orgasm may or may not result from masturbation. Masturbation is one way of many to achieve orgasm. I could certainly imagine somebody being a compulsive masturbator or even addicted to it.

Sounds like

you must have been a Daoist master in a past life. Wink

I'm really glad you finally sorted your spouse out and got her on track. She sounded pretty headstrong to me, so I'm quite impressed. And very happy for you both. Would love to hear more about your experiences when you care to share.

Will do!

I can't take too much credit. She's still very headstrong. She just simply "discovered" at my urging that this way feels pretty good, too. She's still insistent on my own orgasm schedule.

But, to be sure, her and I now having this bonding act, things have calmed quite a bit.

David