progress not perfection

Submitted by looking4balance on
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hi all,

well, i tried to introduce the girl i am dating to some of these non-orgasm techiniques but i dont think she quite gets it or is into it. i tried to have a different kind of lovemaking technique with her just now, where i was focused on pleasing her and going slow, just lots of touching, but she pulled me into making traditional love in the end. i was hoping tpo go longer than 1 week without orgasm, but it happened. so...I still havent looked at porn in 2 weeks and and at least my intention was more on touching and energy so its a start i guess. now i will try to stay aware of my mind/mood changes since this happened and observe. thats all i can do now...not going to beat myself up for giving in to having orgasm. just keep to be aware..


listen to your intuition

Hi . . . too bad your girl isn't into this form of lovemaking yet.

women have been so sexually circumcised historically that the results have been frigidity. We have only been coming out of this prison recently. I think that many women may be overly attached to orgasm at this point because they have taken responsibility for their own liberation from this frigidity and in many cases their whole identity as liberated women hinges on their ability to come. So I can see how, as a man, it could be quite challenging to find a woman willing to give this up. I realize what I'm portraying may only be a reflection of my own process and not representative of the majority of women's experience, but from what I observe in my friends it seems to be true. Many of them are still unabl to have an orgasm through penetrative sex. Many women are very experienced with not having orgasm, and probably associate lack of orgasm with frusteration and alienation rather than with deeper relaxation and connection. Once they have attained the ability to orgasm, they may be very fiercly attached to it as a hard-earned part of their identity, one they don't want to give up.

What I'm learning is that the ability to have an orgasm is not necessarily synonymous with ecstatic presence. My roommate is a good example of this. She has difficulty having orgasms but she is one of the most sexy, ectatic women I know. She has a free, hearty laugh, and is a full embodiment of the divine feminine. In other words, she enjoys life. The orgasmic woman is a symbol of someone who is totally at home in her body and able to enjoy herself. But I think actually, that many women (and perhaps men) experience orgasm more as an athletic feat or show of prowess than as a comfort with being their fully ecstatic selves. If they were comfortable with being their fully ecstatic selves, they would know that there are many layers and levels to revel in that are as much a part of ecstacy as orgasm is. I almost think that the striving for orgasm, in its goal orientedness, is a form of emotional avoidance.

It seems like it would be very hard to sucessfully embark upon such an experiment with a partner who is not interested in the idea at all. So maybe you should phrase it in terms of wanting to be emotionally closer, wanting to have longer lovemaking sessions, and wanting to play and cuddle more. Hardly any woman would be averse to this. Then, you can suggest taking little "breaks" in your lovemaking session. During one of these breaks you can simply decide not to continue making love to her - ie, a long break of a few hours or or a day. During this break, try to notice where the lovemaking went - can you continue to make love to her without penetrating her? If she protests, tell her that you are still making love to her. Don't let her rein you in. When she is begging you and luring you in and you check inside yourself and see yourself trying to rationalize it - "just a little more wouldn't hurt, I can control myself," then check in with your intuition and see if you can tell whether this next little session would lead to orgasm or not. I've found that after a break, when I start to go back into another round, some part of me that is intuitive knows when I'm a goner or not. It tells me I'm in dangerous territory. The other voice says, "Just a little more and then I'll stop." And then you're in it and its just a little more, just a little more. This is the nature of all addiction I think. For the porn addict: "I haven't looked at it in two weeks. Just a little peek won't hurt me. Besides, it's natural for me to enjoy the beauty of women's bodies. I don't want to avoid something perfectly natural and live through guilt and avoidance, after all." Or for the pothead: "Just one hit of pot. I'm not at all exessive these days. I haven't smoked for four days. I deserve this. Plus, it helps me to tune into my body." Before you know it you're smoking every day, glued to the computer for hours, or totally spent with another orgasm.

Well I'm just telling a story we all know too well. The amusing thing to me is that after it all, we all walk around like we actually have free will, as though we actually have the ability to make choices about what is or is not good for us.

From my own experience, I would just say: learn to distinguish the different voices that talk to you, realize that they have different agendas, remind yourself that you do have free will, and realize which one you want to listen to. The intuitive voice usually is less loud and logical; it quietly says, "You know this is dangerous territory here. You'd be better off to avoid it completely." It obseves and suggests, but doesn't rationalize, isn't adamant, and doesn't guilt trip you after you ignored it.

I'm learning to listen to it more.
Good luck on your journey.

What a beautiful post

Thanks for being the "Wise Woman" for today. The explanation of how women get trapped in the search for orgasm was especially brilliant.

Did you see this segment of a book by Barry Long, who taught that orgasm was not woman's natural goal in sex? (Keep in mind that although Barry Long blames the ignorance of men, we would say the culprit is the reward circuitry of the brain, which is very vulnerable to addiction to all sorts of things, including orgasm.)

Woman has learned to make love through man who does not know how to make love. Hence the dreadful mess that love is in. Since time began she has been manipulated and encouraged to feel that the finest expression of her love is to please man sexually. The truth is the other way around. The finest expression of love is to have man delight her sexually. This he can only do when he can forget his preoccupation with orgasm and be sufficiently selfless or present in love to collect and receive her divine energies. For him, these are the finest expression of her love.

By teaching her to please him and satisfy him down through the ages, man has taught woman to desire him, to project herself sexually, to make herself attractive to him. He addicted her to an emotional and physical craving for his sexual attention. And he did this by neglecting to love her.

Woman had no affirmation of love, her true nature, since there was no man to love her rightly. So she settled for sexual excitation, which man had persuaded her was love. Men addicted her to this by teaching her that there is no purpose to physical love outside of making babies or selfish pleasure.

Man in his selfishness taught woman to be selfish. He taught her to excite him physically whenever love was not present; to project herself sexually for their mutual entertainment through clothing, make-up, dance and posing. And he encouraged her to let him excite her (and himself) through digital stimulation of her clitoris to the point of orgasm, instead of loving the beauty of her whole body.

The loveless narcotic of sex numbed her and like all addictions, engendered fear - fear of losing him or his attention, and fear of other women in the form of jealousy and female competition. If she didn’t satisfy him another woman soon would. And with this went the intimidating thought sown in her by all her sexual partners: that if she didn’t comply she’d be left alone.

We believe the best solution to his human weakness is balance, not blame. Still, his words also get at the problem you discussed above.

Dear Looking4:

Remember, you learn as much from the unintentional orgasms as you do from the actual practice.

The chief risk is that as your perception shifts back toward the addictive itch (which is a natural phase of the cycle), the "noble ideal" of learning a new way of making love suddenly seems ridiculous.

I've been through this cycle myself. Yet, eventually, I always reluctantly came to the conclusion that biology's way just led to emotional friction and separation (no matter how enticing the promises that Hotspring describes so well), and I'd wearily start again - even more determined to be consistent with the practice.

At least the research is fun. Wink

yes, that is totally what

yes, that is totally what I let myself get pulled into old habits, the idea of this new way seemed like too much, silly even..must have been the dopa addict talking in my head. the thing that concerns me is even though I am porn free for 2 weeks, i could easily start having addictive, non-loving sex with my partner as a substitute. In that case, its merely masturbating using someone else's body (which is exactly what porn shows). I wonder since I am easily pulled back into old style sex, should i just be celibate for a while (shudder)?

the thing i noticed so far was that after my traditional 'O', i fell into a massive food binge on ice cream and snacks. hadnt binged like that in a long surprise it happened just hours after sex...

food for thought (no pun...) : )

Amazing what you see through this set of glasses, eh?

I remember that when I was just learning about all this, I made love with someone who was a vegetarian and had lived in an ashram for many years. After sex, which inadvertently turned into orgasmic sex ;-), he announced that he wanted a steak for dinner.

I began to see just how powerful these subconscious cravings are...and how very different the planet would look if we were all operating without them. The implications are huge.

In short, it may not be such a trivial matter how we use our sexuality.

It's great that you're noticing what you're noticing, but believe me, women can be just as single-minded when their procreative hormones kick in. I've heard from many men that when women get pregnant they often change completely, focusing only one thing: getting that baby into the world and supported by everyone around. Biology is really clear about its goals. If we want to pursue different ones, we have to be equally clear and consistent.

A Conflicting Impasse

Hello Marnia:
I'm certain that when You write that.....

"Biology is really clear about its goals. If we want to pursue
different ones, we have to be equally clear and consistent"

.....You are fully aware to have come to a conflicting impasse where the Creator, first, supports His creature-man in his evolution and, then, at a certain point, opposes him to further evolve.

I would love You sharing with us Your insights about a rational solution of this apparent conflict.

Thank You!

jb Mirabile-caruso.

I will happily share my thoughts

I don't believe God created us in physical form or has ANY interest in our multiplying ourselves here (although rearing a child is one way to remember the principle of unconditional love).

I believe that we humans believe God wants us to multiply simply to justify continuing our little game in matter. (As Voltaire said, "God created man in His image, and man returned the favor" by imagining a God who is petty, vindictive, contradictory and obsessed with procreation.)

Like the Gnostics, I believe that we are fundamentally spirit, "pieces" of the Divine with creative powers, who can playfully design any adventure we like in any dimension (or more than one dimension). I believe that through the desire to play at mating and procreating we entrapped ourselves in very dense bodies. I also believe that we will have to reverse the process by experiencing true union beyond the body in order to "snap back" into full awareness. That is, we will have to use sex for a higher end than procreation/recreation.

So far, this concept of the universe is theoretical in my world :-), but it makes a lot more sense to me than any of the "God created us to sin and then punishes us for sinning" stuff of classic theology. No loving Creator would do that. However, a loving creator might easily turn his creations loose and let them play at making their own messes and then cleaning them up. In eternity such a game doesn't matter. It's only uncomfortable while one is playing it.

Your thoughts?

Creation and Procreation

Thanks, Marnia, for sharing Your thoughts. In fact, i should extent my thanks to all Members of this forum for their contributions - in the form of experiences, experiments, thoughts and visions - that i most attentively follow and that i consider as being crucial to our shared search for Truth.

I do happen to share with You the perception that we Humans were originally "brought into being" at a dimension less material than the one we presently occupy, this not to be misunderstood, however, with the existence of different "divided" dimensions of being, for i have gradually come to believe that only one substance does exist in the Universe, this ranging - through a vibrational continuum - from Matter to Spirit.

I have, above, intentionally used the expression "brought into being" in order to specifically avoid the word "created", for "creation" i strongly feel as implying an abysmal distance between the "created" and the full creative potentiality of the Creator. Taken this matter into the world of Human life, we can observe how our intellectual creations fade miserably away when confronted by our emotional ones, and, yet, these are themselves left shamefully behind when compared with that supreme creative altitude which matches our potentiality: "procreation".

Procreation is, indeed!, the supreme creation of which we are capable. It fulfils our potentiality. Beyond it we cannot go. There is no need, nor purpose, nor space to go.

There is a graduality to be observed in the Biblical narrative of creation. Like in a developing drama, the Creator comes to a climax on the sixth day. He has to. He cannot miss this appointment, for LOVE, His emotional supreme power, storms Him there by force, by the unavoidable command of His own nature. Negating procreation equates to negation of Himself.

And so a child is born, Man, His Son.

He is androgynous, as His Father is. And He is a free agent, as His Father is. For to be a Son of the Creator, He must possess the faculty to choose whether to preserve His inherited wholeness of androgyny or squander it into the dualism of creation. This latter was chosen. And so we have Man and Woman - two atrophied wholenesses - tragically giving themselves to each other in the desparate attempt to recupture their lost androgyny.

A tragic illusion. In vain. For androgyny is not to be "reconstituted" by "two bodies becoming one" in the spasm of sexual coniugation, but, on the contrary, by being recandled by the power of retained energy. Man and Woman, even after their fall into dualistic procreation and the consequential loss of their original immortality, never lost their inherited androgyny. They retain it in its integrity, though impared by lack of energy and lack of seminal fluid, both being madly squandered by bestial sexual activity.

The regaining of our fully operational androgyny, i'm convinced is the challenge we Humans find ourselves confronted with. With it - and through it - we will regain our lost immortality, our lost vibrational dimension we were procreated in, and our lost consciousness by which we will finally know ourselves and our Father "Who is in Heaven".

These are my confirmed thoughts, Marnia, for what they are worth.

jb Mirabile-caruso

Thanks jb

It's always good to look at the Big Picture, too. Thank you for reminding us.

I hope that when you said "procreation is the supreme creation of which we are capable," you meant "procreation" in the larger sense, and not just propagation of new humans.

People can also use the creative energy that arises from the true union of the sexes to give birth to ideas, inventions, inspiring art, and so forth. Here's a discussion of this point, which was written a hundred years ago, but I still resonate with it:

It has been proven that in the Karezza relation [controlled intercourse] the creative principle becomes active in both husband and wife. While the spiritual senses are thus attuned to the finest perception in soul vibration, ideas of great moment are conceived. It is within the power of men and women, interested in the operation of spiritual law, further to demonstrate the validity of the theory.

Newton says:

It is important to know that there are other uses for the procreative element than the generation of physical offspring, far better uses than its waste in momentary pleasure. It may, indeed, be better wasted than employed in imposing unwelcome burdens on toilworn and outraged women. But there should be no waste. This element when retained in the system may be coined into new thoughts, perhaps new inventions, grand conceptions of the true, the beautiful, the useful; or into fresh emotions of joy, and impulses of kindness and blessing to all around. This is, in fact, but another department of procreation. It is the procreation of thoughts, ideas, feelings of good-will, intuitions of truth - that is, it is procreation on the mental and spiritual planes, instead of physical. It is just as really a part of the generative function as is the begetting of physical offspring. It is by far the greater part; for physical procreation can ordinarily be participated in but seldom; while mental and spiritual procreation may and should go on through all our earthly lives - yea, through all our immortal existence.

To the mature man a consecration of virile powers is essential to the maintenance of a high tone of vitality and of manly vigor. On it depends the degree of positive or impregnative force which characterizes the individual in his mental activities.

A speaker or writer who is addicted to waste in this department, though he may talk and write with great profuseness, may expect that his words will be comparatively powerless in their effect upon others. They will lack germinating power. But he who conserves this element, in a calm, deliberate union, charges not only his words, but the very atmosphere, with a power which penetrates and begets new thoughts and new emotions in those whom he addresses.

"Every idea is an intellectual child, and if it be a pleasant thing to have physical sons and daughters, what are the power, the opulence, the enjoyments of him who abounds in ideas, the beautiful and immortal sons and daughters of the soul?"

Who, then, are the true old bachelors and old maids, and who the really childless? Not so much the unmarried by ring and book, as they who have not courted and wedded nature, receiving from her in reply a family of beautiful ideas.

He is a spiritual parent who has learned to drink from the well of truth, and from the deep resources of his being, has discovered the secret powers of life. In outward manifestation he may preach, teach, heal and prophesy, but should he sit quietly in his own home, his life is a silent benediction to all, even to those who do not come into his presence. His creative energy brings forth according to the potent power of thinking. Through the contagion of thought his influence has infinite possibilities.

Spiritual pleasures transcend those of a physical nature, and all practices that lead one to walk in the paths of light and truth conduce to peace and harmony. Not only this, but through the laws that govern the occult forces - in the practice of Karezza, there are far more reaching results than accrue to the individual in the ordinary sexual relation.

Long ago Laboulaye asserted that "the passions take the place in the soul which the will does not occupy, and there may yet be discovered a process by which passion may be transmuted into intellectual fibre. This is, indeed, the last and highest possibility of human culture."

People will know this place, the functions of passion, and their relations to the will when they understand the germinating power of thought, and have their sexual life under a wise control. Men and women practicing Karezza attest that their very souls in union take on a procreating power, and that it seems to have an impregnating force, far transcending in power and intelligence any ordinary thought force. These mighty soul conceptions demand generation and birth, for the world is in need of their regenerating power. Let all children of men listen for these messages. Let them go into the hush of the spirit and wait in the night stillness for the revelation. It may come in the fire of a poet or the eloquence of an orator, but certainly if souls are attuned to life's harmonies the law will be fulfilled in song and prophecy.


In this ecstatic stillness the problems of the philanthropist are solved; the sculptor's marble glows with life; the painter's canvas reflects love and intelligence; while the desires of each are lifted to the highest and truest expressions of the soul, expressions that shall hasten the universal brotherhood of man.