how far is too far

Submitted by bamazi on
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I understand that we enhance intimacy when we stop before orgasm, but how far is too far ? And this question is going to be different for a man and a woman. Is petting allowed ? touching partner's genitals ? I appreciate the articles on this site but I have not seen too much about where to draw the line, simply not orgasming seems somewhat vague.

Here's a different way of looking at the question

I stumbled upon these remarks from a man's letter from a while back. I think he's right. Intention is more important than specifics. Specifics are helpful while you're learning to hold your intention, but the same type of contact can be nourishing or greedy, depending upon the intention behind it.


It seems like some of the ideas are getting blurred in the dialog.

I really like the terms "peak orgasm" and "valley orgasm" because they make the underlying energy issues clearer than other phrases do.

I've experienced non-ejaculatory peak orgasms before. As near as I can tell, the hormonal cycles after this are very similar to the hormonal cycles after an ejaculatory orgasm.

If this is the case, then the critical factor isn't whether somebody ejaculated, it is whether it was a peak or valley orgasm.

Another critical factor is whether the person's focus is on what they are getting or on what they are giving.

As near as I can tell, the practices described in the book Peace Between the Sheets depend on constantly avoiding peak orgasms, and constantly focusing on an unconditional giving dynamic. As soon as you have a peak orgasm or start focusing on getting, you will loose your balance and life will become more problematic.

Even if somebody is focusing on valley orgasms, if they are focusing on getting, rather than giving, valley orgasms, then it still won't bring them the happiness and well-being they are seeking. This is because they will still be entangled on the old programming and old hormone cycles. To escape these traps requires focusing on both unconditionally deeply giving and on avoiding peak orgasms.

So it seems to me to talk about non-ejaculatory sex is a red herring that can easily confuse the issues because it obscures whether they are having valley or peak orgasms, and obscures whether their intent is on getting or giving.

I think this is why all the reading on tantric sex never made sense to me - they were confusing these issues and I could sense the confusion, but didn't understand it then.

So now it seems very simple - find a path that leads to staying in a giving perspective while you share sexual energy in a very relaxed way. To oversimplify this, avoid having peak orgasms while focusing on unconditionally deeply giving in a way the leads to valley orgasms for the other person.

The tricky part is that usually the simplest things are the hardest to accomplish Smiling

I think the hardest part is to learn to stay in the giving mode. The more I look, the more I'm amazed at how many getting dynamics are masquerading as some kind of giving, and this is confusing a lot of people. It is real easy to construct a maze of delusions, rationalizations, and illusions to maintain the posture of giving while the underlying dynamic is actually on getting. It is real hard to unravel all this, let go of your self interest, and make a habit of giving.

When people have been working with the practices in Peace Between the Sheets, likely a lot of the failures had to do with the fact that they weren't consistently unconditionally deeply giving towards the other person even though they thought they were.

Our culture is so focused on getting that it takes a deep commitment to a practice of giving to step out of the getting dynamics, and even then, if you aren't fully honest with yourself, the getting dynamics will suck you back in.

This is why I get concerned when I hear talk about avoiding ejaculation instead of talk about focusing on unconditionally deeply giving, avoiding peak orgasms, and self honesty.

You might find the whole page interesting:

its the intention that is key

I think my intentions right now are very peak orgasm oriented but I got here not because of being completely selfish but because I felt that I was cheating the other person by not expressing my self completely when that time came. We learn about each other during sex and that was my way of saying "yes if you push those buttons at that time in that way, that's what happens" even though I could have pulled back that just felt like lying or keeping something about me from them. But now I have had to confront that going all the way all the time cheats me of many things in life where it could have enhanced it if managed correctly. I think it's worth it if it meant that I would come to be aware of this method before I got married, it's going to have such a great ramification for my whole life but especially for my future wife and even children as they reap from what we would cultivate. Thank you Marnia, your work has really confirmed for me what my inner voice was telling me regarding how I was severely affecting my inner chemistry with orgasms. If I look back now it is easy to see when my worst days were and it easily coincides with times that I was most sexually active after slowly building up to that. Your work is understanding and infused with a lot of wisdom.

very clarifying

Whoever took the time to articulate that so well, I appreciate it, especially the dynamic of getting masquerading as giving.

I've become really aware recently of all the really subtle ways that my ego grasps towards all kinds of things to get security, but without any real regard for the thing itself that is being sought (attention from men, food, etc etc.)

I've started to close my eyes and actually be able to see my energy. A fixation is like an energy leak - I am giving power to something outside myself but without any real appreciation for it, only a desire to fill the hole. So I've started to just imagine my own light energy filling that hole and becoming clear and sharp and self-contained. When I operate from this space of centeredness I am much more able to really savor and really enjoy another person or thing for what it is.

So giving can be expressed as a tangible generosity to another person but it can also be the act of simply stepping back and allowing them space to be themselves without any demands on them at all.